Paediatric Neuropsychology with Professor Vicki Anderson

Professor Anderson joins us to discuss career development in paediatric neuropsychology, the wider developments in the field, and the challenges and opportunities of this work. 

Transcript

4
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:23.490
Ingram Wright: So welcome to the neuro clinic. We are delighted to have Professor Vicki Anderson with us, and I've got another treat in store. Because we've got a new co-host cleaner Carol cleaner. Do you want to say Hello.

5
00:00:23.680 --> 00:00:43.610
Cliodhna Carroll: Hi! Ingram? Hi Vicki I'm. I'm. Gina Karl I'm. A clinical psychologist and neuropsychologist, and I'm involved with the British Psychological Society as the early career representative. So i'm delighted to join us. The new co-host and on on the podcast with you, Ingram.

6
00:00:43.610 --> 00:00:50.610
Ingram Wright: I clearly need help. I I I can't do this on my own anymore. We've had a long break and a bit of a rest.

7
00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:57.970
Ingram Wright: and we've dusted off our mics and various things haven't we clean up. You got a new microphone. I've got a new mic very exciting.

8
00:00:58.370 --> 00:01:01.490
Ingram Wright: So we've invested heavily in this podcast vicki, and

9
00:01:01.770 --> 00:01:03.010
Ingram Wright: we've got a

10
00:01:03.070 --> 00:01:09.790
Ingram Wright: a stellar guest to start us off. So, Vicki, I've been wanting to persuade you to come on this podcast for a while.

11
00:01:10.130 --> 00:01:11.530
Ingram Wright: Your book

12
00:01:11.690 --> 00:01:19.850
Ingram Wright: was the first book that I read that really drew me into pediatric numerous psychology. I imagine I speak for lots of people in that regard, and I suppose we'll get.

13
00:01:19.910 --> 00:01:22.390
Ingram Wright: We'll get into some of that. But

14
00:01:22.700 --> 00:01:28.510
Ingram Wright: we have a convention in the neuro clinic that people introduce themselves, and I was just explaining before we got on the

15
00:01:28.930 --> 00:01:38.080
Ingram Wright: on the recording that that maybe it spares us the awkwardness of me introducing you, which I admitted to having done in a rather clumsy way in the past, so i'm.

16
00:01:38.440 --> 00:01:43.820
Ingram Wright: I've kind of learned my lesson. But are you happy to say a few words about who you are?

17
00:01:44.950 --> 00:01:56.360
vickihome: I am room, and thank you very much for inviting me to to join you in this podcast. So so i'm Vicky Anderson. I live down under in Melbourne, Australia.

18
00:01:56.610 --> 00:02:03.840
vickihome: and I have a number of different hats in my role. So I'm. I'm. Head of psychology at the Children's Hospital.

19
00:02:03.990 --> 00:02:10.070
vickihome: and I'm. Also the the Director of Clinical Sciences, research

20
00:02:10.160 --> 00:02:13.520
vickihome: at the middle of Children's Research Institute.

21
00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:23.720
vickihome: where I get to boss around a lot of surgeons and consultants and tell them how much money they have to pay their their research costs.

22
00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:26.120
vickihome: But I suppose my

23
00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:35.020
vickihome: my main interest is in child brain injury. Hence, being a pediatric, me, a psychologist, and

24
00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:45.140
vickihome: a a very broad interest. So really, over the many years of my career, I've looked at a range of different. just sort of starting from

25
00:02:45.460 --> 00:02:47.780
vickihome: brain changes in the Kenya.

26
00:02:47.860 --> 00:02:53.410
vickihome: And now, more recently, looking at stroke. And even more recently, I've got to be hooked on concussion.

27
00:02:55.160 --> 00:03:00.310
Ingram Wright: Okay, I just realized I made the mistake of saying, I read your book like you've only ever written one book.

28
00:03:00.850 --> 00:03:09.680
Ingram Wright: which is an example of the of the of the of the clumsy way that I sort of slightly misrepresents the canon of your research and

29
00:03:09.730 --> 00:03:16.110
Ingram Wright: clinical research output. So I do apologize for that. So it's always good to start a podcast with an apology.

30
00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:21.120
vickihome: I'm. I except gracefully.

31
00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:22.740
vickihome: I think I was talking about.

32
00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:32.240
Ingram Wright: So we will. We will. We will append a substantial bibliography to the, to the to the podcast output, so that people can appreciate the

33
00:03:32.640 --> 00:03:37.020
Ingram Wright: the breadth of of work that you've undertaken. But I suppose one of the things that

34
00:03:37.070 --> 00:03:38.370
Ingram Wright: people are

35
00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:47.720
Ingram Wright: often really interested to know about is is what got you into neuropychology? In the first place, I mean, are you happy to

36
00:03:47.940 --> 00:03:52.600
Ingram Wright: let us know how you got started out what fired up your interest in in this area?

37
00:03:53.920 --> 00:04:07.610
vickihome: No, I suppose the first thing that happened was I lived in a country town, and I really wanted to leave home. love my mom and dad, but I was very keen to leave home, and so I chose a a course that I needed to do in the big city.

38
00:04:07.720 --> 00:04:08.850
vickihome: and

39
00:04:09.100 --> 00:04:11.440
I thought I wanted to be a dietician.

40
00:04:11.530 --> 00:04:15.090
vickihome: But then I got to university, and I.

41
00:04:15.690 --> 00:04:33.660
vickihome: I had some lectures from Kevin Walsh, who, some of you may know, maybe may not know. It, was really the father of nearer psychology in Australia, and probably the father of nearer if the frontal lobes internationally. So he was an inspirational teacher.

42
00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:51.140
vickihome: and he very much had a model of neuro psychology. That was a detective kind of model spot collision which I've really found exciting, and he just opened up a whole range of really fascinating opportunities through his teaching, and he had me hooked, and i've

43
00:04:51.170 --> 00:04:59.640
vickihome: being passionate about your psychology at the same time. That's because that was in 90 s 1,978.

44
00:05:01.660 --> 00:05:12.170
Ingram Wright: What? And what I I suppose one of the things that sort of immediately interests me. I mean. I was born in 1,970, and I went to university in 1,989.

45
00:05:12.230 --> 00:05:15.280
Ingram Wright: The I I was inspired

46
00:05:15.510 --> 00:05:20.510
Ingram Wright: largely from a developmental perspective, and and again have a bit of a story around.

47
00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:29.610
Ingram Wright: There were one or 2 people who presented developmental psychology in a particular way that really drew me in and and and and and fired me up.

48
00:05:30.010 --> 00:05:31.080
Ingram Wright: But i'm guessing.

49
00:05:31.330 --> 00:05:40.740
Ingram Wright: The disciplines changed quite a lot since that time, Vicki, is it? Is it still the same kind of space that that was exciting to you at at the time.

50
00:05:42.700 --> 00:05:52.680
vickihome: I think it. It really has changed a lot. When I was doing my training you could easily read every paper on your psychology in a day.

51
00:05:52.910 --> 00:06:01.180
vickihome: And now, you know, I can't even keep up with my own particular areas. I think there was some really good things that came out of

52
00:06:01.220 --> 00:06:03.690
vickihome: being involved way back then

53
00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:04.600
vickihome: in the

54
00:06:05.530 --> 00:06:16.130
vickihome: when I, when I moved into a clinical role, I needed to see all kids who had brain injury. So I saw the cancer kids that some of the kids with stroke.

55
00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:25.950
vickihome: And so I got a really good sense of what each of those had in common, and how they were different, and I think that

56
00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:41.630
vickihome: that understanding what was in common with all of them, has really built my passion in pediatrics, because I do think that we can think about spotting the lesion, and which part of the brain has been impacted. But in kids

57
00:06:41.850 --> 00:06:57.350
vickihome: often that's not so relevant because what's been impacted is the developmental process. So developmental blueprint has been derailed. And so lots of the kinds of conditions we see will have, as you know, Ingram.

58
00:06:57.440 --> 00:06:58.700
vickihome: But

59
00:06:58.770 --> 00:07:18.070
vickihome: the information processing difficulties. So it's slow processes paid for attention for memory, but not so much the kind of things that we would see in a similar insulting adults. So you an adult stroke you have a fazier or Hemiplegian, and that's that's actually quite rare, at least in the longer term

60
00:07:18.070 --> 00:07:23.760
vickihome: in in pediatrics. So that really picked my interest in this whole issue Of

61
00:07:23.990 --> 00:07:26.290
vickihome: what? What, what is it

62
00:07:26.640 --> 00:07:29.180
vickihome: importance of?

63
00:07:29.390 --> 00:07:33.230
vickihome: And so, and a lot of my work since then, has been really focusing on it.

64
00:07:33.900 --> 00:07:40.990
Cliodhna Carroll: I'm: really sorry. I'm: really curious as well. Thank you about your experiences around

65
00:07:41.490 --> 00:08:00.930
Cliodhna Carroll: working with schools working with the support networks around children, because I guess you know, i'm an adult adult neuro psychologist. I have, you know, worked with kids at certain points like kind of but I think my experience in some ways has been that lack of understanding around the systems, particularly around education systems around children, that

66
00:08:00.930 --> 00:08:04.050
Cliodhna Carroll: that can make a huge difference in terms of

67
00:08:04.380 --> 00:08:07.860
Cliodhna Carroll: how difficulties are seen. Maybe

68
00:08:07.910 --> 00:08:23.410
Cliodhna Carroll: you know, things been kind of identified as been like Adhd, or autism, or learning disability, and and how to pull pull that apart. And is that is that important to pull it apart? I don't know what your thoughts are in that it's quite a a big question.

69
00:08:24.090 --> 00:08:38.929
vickihome: That's such a good question, though, and I might start with the end one. And then so I I am seeing a lot of kids who have both trauma and a very disabled, so that we know their brain is really

70
00:08:40.030 --> 00:08:41.150
vickihome: abnormal.

71
00:08:41.400 --> 00:08:48.090
vickihome: And and so these these 4 kids, who already have a several policy label or something similar.

72
00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:56.780
vickihome: will then get a label of 80 HD. Or Asd. Because their attention is poor and their social skills are for and

73
00:08:57.270 --> 00:09:06.410
vickihome: just from a neur, a psychological perspective. It doesn't make sense, because we would expect those things to be poor because it's all part of how the brain functions.

74
00:09:06.520 --> 00:09:11.190
vickihome: I think sometimes there is marriage in

75
00:09:11.540 --> 00:09:15.760
vickihome: keeping those diagnoses for funding purposes, perhaps.

76
00:09:15.770 --> 00:09:21.500
vickihome: But when I talk to families I I really like to emphasize that you know

77
00:09:21.540 --> 00:09:33.320
vickihome: a child, even a child with less severe problems doesn't have asd and autism and a learning difficulty they have, and they're neurotypical. And all of these things are actually.

78
00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:43.360
vickihome: I like in some ways. And then the new approach to psychiatry. The trans diagnostic approach, I think, is really useful in kids because it doesn't.

79
00:09:43.420 --> 00:09:51.110
vickihome: They don't leave your rooms with 5 different problems. They They live with one problem. It has a range of different symptoms, and

80
00:09:51.130 --> 00:09:53.650
vickihome: and I always like to be able to.

81
00:09:53.810 --> 00:10:02.840
vickihome: you know. Feeding back to families has be able to help him understand what their child, Why, they try to be having a particular way, but also

82
00:10:02.920 --> 00:10:05.630
vickihome: have a little bit more hope and understanding of

83
00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:08.730
vickihome: of what the underlying issues are.

84
00:10:09.580 --> 00:10:17.280
vickihome: The second question is around. Sorry? No, you go. The second question was around linking with services, and

85
00:10:17.770 --> 00:10:37.600
vickihome: I I know, like like Britain, we have a a universal health system. A links with education are not great, but it is certainly reasonable. And for most kids I would be talking to teachers or doing school meetings, even if i'm just doing an assessment. But

86
00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:49.660
vickihome: so I think, about our rehabilitation team. They're very integrated with some schools and very much part of the process of getting kids back to school gradually. And then further and further.

87
00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:58.200
vickihome: I I think the other element of the integration is with the rest of the hospital. And

88
00:10:58.450 --> 00:11:11.290
vickihome: but when when I started, people didn't believe in the view that early in salt is worse than later in salt. It was very much all their child. They'll get better, their brains plastic.

89
00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:20.250
vickihome: and, in fact, the very few ring rehab services around for kids in those days, and I think gradually, as the research is built up, it's now become clear that

90
00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:29.570
vickihome: it's a bit too simplistic to say younger age means worse outcomes, but that there are critical periods during childhood; that when it's really bad to have an injury.

91
00:11:31.280 --> 00:11:39.390
Ingram Wright: Nikki. I I wanted to, I suppose, take you a bit to Sorry i'm getting lost now, because i'm i'm so.

92
00:11:39.670 --> 00:11:41.700
Ingram Wright: realizing that, having 3 of us on

93
00:11:41.880 --> 00:11:56.140
Ingram Wright: and and giving you space cleaner is a bit tricky. Obviously this bit won't Go into the edit, and i'm just trying to remember what the question was I was going to ask you were talking about, and I'm just reminding myself here, Vicki, so I can find my my, my thread again. You were talking about

94
00:11:57.490 --> 00:12:02.320
Ingram Wright: what interested you and I. I know what it was. It was about holistic approaches.

95
00:12:02.370 --> 00:12:03.050
And

96
00:12:03.070 --> 00:12:09.010
Ingram Wright: because I can I just try and gather myself. I'm. I'm coming across very professional. Now, that's fantastic.

97
00:12:10.310 --> 00:12:12.250
Ingram Wright: So, Vicki, you were talking about

98
00:12:12.490 --> 00:12:19.340
Ingram Wright: how lucky you were, I suppose, to start. I don't know whether you would characterize yourself as lucky, but lucky to start

99
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:26.170
Ingram Wright: work in an area that was growing in developing, and you could kind of read and embrace consume everything.

100
00:12:26.350 --> 00:12:27.250
Ingram Wright: And

101
00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:31.730
Ingram Wright: I had a similarly, I think, lucky experience in the

102
00:12:33.060 --> 00:12:36.530
Ingram Wright: I sort of cut my teeth as a clinical neuropsychologist.

103
00:12:36.710 --> 00:12:37.300
it

104
00:12:37.370 --> 00:12:38.630
Ingram Wright: offering

105
00:12:39.310 --> 00:12:46.230
Ingram Wright: a comprehensive service to any referrals coming from our neurologists and community pediatricians, and it felt to me that

106
00:12:48.260 --> 00:12:59.100
Ingram Wright: there's a considerable advantage in seeing everything, because you see those commonalities, you see common themes in families who've experienced the trauma of having a child have an acquired brain injury, and

107
00:12:59.780 --> 00:13:14.290
Ingram Wright: that there's much more in common than perhaps the research literature would would lead us to believe, and and we were talking a little bit before the podcast about how, if you consume the literature now, you'll you'll read lots of papers that about

108
00:13:14.530 --> 00:13:19.250
Ingram Wright: small series studies, small and designs with.

109
00:13:19.470 --> 00:13:22.600
Ingram Wright: you know, sort of rare populations.

110
00:13:23.060 --> 00:13:27.550
Ingram Wright: But what's striking is that there are common features. There is family trauma. There is

111
00:13:27.590 --> 00:13:33.980
Ingram Wright: difficulties with being accepted by your peers. There are problems often commonly presented with

112
00:13:34.410 --> 00:13:39.060
Ingram Wright: subtle executive, regulatory and difficulties, and

113
00:13:39.490 --> 00:13:43.040
Ingram Wright: I'm guessing one of the corresponding difficulties that you might have

114
00:13:43.180 --> 00:13:59.580
Ingram Wright: is that you could be unlucky and work with a single population, and and and and carve out your research niche in that in that way, I mean I maybe lucky unlucky is the wrong way to put it. But I mean, how would how do you? I'm. I'm guessing from the way you described yourself, that you would consider yourself

115
00:14:00.070 --> 00:14:06.180
Ingram Wright: as someone who takes a much more holistic approach and embeds pediatric your psychology, and in a broader

116
00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:09.190
Ingram Wright: clinical context rather than pursuing

117
00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:11.600
Ingram Wright: a niche, if you like.

118
00:14:12.610 --> 00:14:15.550
Ingram Wright: It's a very long rambling question.

119
00:14:16.180 --> 00:14:19.250
vickihome: Let's see how my working with memory is to answer it.

120
00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:27.960
vickihome: Ingram. I think I would see myself as holistic. So my training was very much near a psychology spot, the lesion kind of

121
00:14:27.990 --> 00:14:28.970
vickihome: training.

122
00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:47.440
vickihome: and then I went out into paediatrics, and one of the hallmarks of pediatrics is different to to adults, I think. Is it? Kids come with parents? So the child might have a brain injury, but the parent usually doesn't, and they have really tricky questions to answer, and they want information from you

123
00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:57.230
vickihome: that is actually useful for them in their day to day life with this child. So all of a sudden saying, your child has a left temporal.

124
00:14:57.260 --> 00:15:01.950
vickihome: It's not particularly useful to your clients.

125
00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:05.880
vickihome: and so I think pretty quickly. I

126
00:15:05.910 --> 00:15:16.930
vickihome: I I learned that I needed to do more than that, and and I I suppose interestingly, I did my Phd. On specific learning difficulties. So I got quite a good sense of

127
00:15:17.250 --> 00:15:27.940
vickihome: what the key aspects for learning in the classroom, and what would help, so that really has stood me in good state to be able to sit down and talk to a family about. You know

128
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:35.730
vickihome: what's what's going to be the consequences of an auditory processing difficulty, or what's going to be the process of a emotional regulation problem. And

129
00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:40.190
vickihome: and I really find that that's the kind of information that people

130
00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:58.240
vickihome: go away we can hang on to. And now, many, many years later, I often get get young People bringing me up who i'd seen when when I was when they were kids who have done really well, despite all of their brain injury. And you know I still have that yellow copy of the report that I sent them. So I think

131
00:15:58.510 --> 00:16:01.810
vickihome: it's just so much more meaningful if we can.

132
00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:11.990
vickihome: and much more difficult to to be able to move from behind that desk out into the world of outpatient. But I do think it's really important

133
00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:14.870
vickihome: that that's right. I'll get off my slip books, man.

134
00:16:16.390 --> 00:16:24.210
vickihome: I At the At the Children's Hospital, where I work. We have

135
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.480
vickihome: about 50 neur, a psychologist, and

136
00:16:27.590 --> 00:16:40.300
vickihome: probably double that in terms of clinical psychologists, and we have a Haven't spoke kind of model with the psychologist, working cancer and psychologists working in Rehab.

137
00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:53.230
vickihome: But our central group takes the professional governance of all of the psychologists on campus, and what we try and do with that is, bring all of the psychologists together, both clinical and neuroscience

138
00:16:53.530 --> 00:17:08.720
vickihome: and do training together. So you know, If we doing, say they take training. Everyone comes together, and they can all translate it into their own particular context. But they've all got the same set of skills, and I I find that if you don't do that, then you get

139
00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:21.829
vickihome: my colleagues just reinventing the wheel all over the place and wasting a lot of time. So some of the people that we have a course set of skills that we will need to share, and then we can get our individual specialty, knowledge, and experience as well

140
00:17:22.329 --> 00:17:24.650
Ingram Wright: go on cleaning you can.

141
00:17:25.569 --> 00:17:32.380
Ingram Wright: It's a bit awkward. It's not that it's used to living alone, clean.

142
00:17:32.530 --> 00:17:40.190
Cliodhna Carroll: and it's almost like there's a census in there of having kind of a group like a core set of skills, but different lenses of how we might

143
00:17:40.610 --> 00:17:44.550
Cliodhna Carroll: and interpret or see those skills and use them.

144
00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:57.480
vickihome: Yeah, look, I I think you know, I mean, i'm in your psychologist heads to department. That's mostly clinical psychologists and counseling psychologists, and I think it was a lot of anxiety in the stuff when I took that wrong.

145
00:17:57.560 --> 00:18:10.450
vickihome: and probably I would say that that and you a psychologist on that sort of the dial diagnostic end of that. You know. It's like continuum. But I think we've all learnt

146
00:18:10.770 --> 00:18:16.790
vickihome: a lot. So I think the clinical psychologists who, in our in our model Don't, spend a lot of time assessing.

147
00:18:16.800 --> 00:18:27.680
vickihome: has really got to understand the value of assessment, and equally the clinical, the clinical neuron psychologists have have started to understand and put in practice

148
00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:34.510
vickihome: the fact that you know family dynamics are important social economic status and social disadvantage is important.

149
00:18:34.690 --> 00:18:43.970
vickihome: Whether a child had an argument with your mom and dad on the way into their assessment, is a really important thing. So really thinking about what the child brings

150
00:18:44.100 --> 00:18:53.690
vickihome: apart from their brain to the to the assessment context. Formulation. Isn't it. It's always back to formulation. Yes.

151
00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.800
vickihome: that's what we count replaced by computers.

152
00:18:57.250 --> 00:19:12.620
Ingram Wright: 100%. No, yeah, Vicki, Although somebody was talking to me about getting Chat Gpt to write on neuro psychology reports. I don't know if it's something you've tried, Vicki. When I spot the backlog of reporting that I've got to do, I i'm sorely tempted.

153
00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:15.360
Ingram Wright: I I don't know whether you wanted to comment on.

154
00:19:15.500 --> 00:19:21.730
Ingram Wright: I mean you, you you You mentioned that yellowed copy of a report, I mean, I think, one of the things that we set our.

155
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:22.950
Ingram Wright: You know

156
00:19:23.140 --> 00:19:27.450
Ingram Wright: our profession's reputation is often about how we can communicate

157
00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:44.930
Ingram Wright: neuropsychological principles to to families. And you talked a little bit about this in relation to this diagnostic questions that families will sometimes bring, They'll say, Does my child have an autism spectrum condition? Do they have dyspraxia? Do they have this as well as temporal lobe epilepsy. And of course

158
00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:54.310
Ingram Wright: we try and frame our responses in in accordance with it, with with the family's needs. Do you have any sort of tips for people who are burdened with

159
00:19:54.590 --> 00:20:01.050
Ingram Wright: reporting. What is it that that that leads someone to hang on to that report as being particularly salient to them in their

160
00:20:01.070 --> 00:20:02.540
Ingram Wright: developmental journey.

161
00:20:03.490 --> 00:20:07.460
vickihome: So I think, and we were talking about this a little bit before to.

162
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:08.590
vickihome: I think

163
00:20:09.030 --> 00:20:14.890
vickihome: it's really important in a report to, not just talk about weaknesses.

164
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.890
vickihome: And so what I try and do is start with strengths

165
00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:21.950
vickihome: in my reports and

166
00:20:22.290 --> 00:20:25.110
vickihome: in then highlight the weaknesses.

167
00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:39.730
vickihome: but with recommendations around how to support those weaknesses, and it's very rare that you find a family that that aren't really aware of the weaknesses. In fact, my coming to families is if i'm suggesting something about their child that doesn't fit with what they

168
00:20:39.950 --> 00:20:46.090
vickihome: see. And I've probably got it wrong. So you know I think they they absolutely have the

169
00:20:46.530 --> 00:20:58.270
vickihome: like. They know at some level. They just don't have the terminology, and usually they they don't have that the knowledge and the experience to be able to figure out the way around things, and I mean I use it an example.

170
00:20:58.350 --> 00:21:01.360
vickihome: an example that just has stuck in my mind for years, when

171
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:10.200
vickihome: there was a very disable, a very, very severely injured 3 year old child who was in a rehab unit.

172
00:21:10.370 --> 00:21:11.930
vickihome: and the physio

173
00:21:12.410 --> 00:21:25.600
vickihome: contacted me and asked, and this isn't anything they give you about these years, by the way. But the she contacted me and and said, this child keeps fighting me every time i'm working with them they bite me.

174
00:21:25.710 --> 00:21:34.070
vickihome: And so I went down and sat and watched the session and this child it was nonverbal, so she couldn't say anything, and

175
00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:38.420
vickihome: about 30 min into the session, remembering it's a 3 year old.

176
00:21:38.590 --> 00:21:48.960
vickihome: The child started buying that the pci therapist, but it was very clear. That was her only means that communicating she had had it. She couldn't do anything else. So you know, I think

177
00:21:49.710 --> 00:22:01.400
vickihome: the so that is always worried that it was a severe behavior problem. But actually it was a trying. It was quite a positive way to trying to to let. This is, I know, and we could then

178
00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:09.530
vickihome: change that behavior to a different kind of behavior and solve the problem. So I think it's that kind of

179
00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:18.140
vickihome: understanding that's really important. And and when I say students, and you know I often try and get my students to see

180
00:22:18.280 --> 00:22:25.300
vickihome: a non-testable client. because it makes him very anxious, and but it also.

181
00:22:25.650 --> 00:22:32.660
vickihome: you know I do give them some tips. It makes them realize how much information they can actually get

182
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:45.940
vickihome: from observing. So trying to get them to take the head out of the test manual and watch what the child's doing rather than just score it all up, and and I think you know that's a really valuable skill we have as well.

183
00:22:46.100 --> 00:22:52.540
vickihome: and I think all of that then goes into the report. So the whole picture of the

184
00:22:52.800 --> 00:23:01.300
Ingram Wright: and I guess I guess our role as mentors, supervisors, managers, leaders within services is to

185
00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:03.100
Ingram Wright: support

186
00:23:03.310 --> 00:23:16.090
Ingram Wright: generation of neuropsychologists in acquiring those skills and having balance within their clinical repertoire, because it is very easy to get stuck into your test manuals and test scores and and those kinds of things, and the

187
00:23:16.350 --> 00:23:22.330
Ingram Wright: the volume Sometimes the demands on us are such that we can miss some of the things that are perhaps harder

188
00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:26.370
Ingram Wright: to obtain. The information. That's that takes a little bit longer to get hold of.

189
00:23:27.250 --> 00:23:38.360
vickihome: Yeah. And look, I I want to be really clear. I still think we need our manuals and our psychometrics, because they particularly in pediatrics. They're absolutely essential.

190
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:48.870
vickihome: They're essential in the context of understanding what developmental expectations are for a child to. So you know, I think that's important, but absolutely and and

191
00:23:48.950 --> 00:23:56.880
vickihome: I think one of the other things that happens having it right about my profession at month. But I think we get very hooked on

192
00:23:57.500 --> 00:23:59.070
vickihome: test batteries.

193
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:13.340
vickihome: and we have to do all of these things with every child we see, and we'll go on bias. I I grew up in in an era of hypothesis, testing where we you know we did do an IQ test, and from there we went

194
00:24:13.340 --> 00:24:20.300
vickihome: and had a look at what the issues were that we needed to delve deeper. But we didn't do multiple full tests. And you know, I do think

195
00:24:20.330 --> 00:24:22.180
vickihome: I do think this value in

196
00:24:22.210 --> 00:24:31.130
vickihome: in that formulating along the way what we need to do next, and that that also saves us time and allows more time to see more kids.

197
00:24:31.260 --> 00:24:31.950
Yes.

198
00:24:32.790 --> 00:24:44.110
Ingram Wright: i'm guessing set against that. And I suppose we're going to talk a little bit about research. Say one of the things that maybe drives us to be less flexible, more systematic to do the same with everyone is having a

199
00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:55.270
Ingram Wright: a clear research agenda. It is important we do this test because we always do this with children with this particular tumor or whatever it is. I'm guessing you've had to balance out

200
00:24:55.370 --> 00:25:05.230
Ingram Wright: some of those concerns about. We need to be systematic if we're able to succeed and gather evidence around outcomes in particular cases. So there is something

201
00:25:05.840 --> 00:25:09.000
Ingram Wright: that you're saying which is very powerful and persuasive about

202
00:25:09.610 --> 00:25:17.990
Ingram Wright: your clinical orientation. But you've clearly also been very successful in in the research domain. Vicki. How have you managed those those tensions?

203
00:25:19.370 --> 00:25:24.570
vickihome: So I think it's a bit of a chronology here that's important. So

204
00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:28.070
vickihome: when I started doing research.

205
00:25:28.110 --> 00:25:31.100
vickihome: I fine

206
00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:46.340
vickihome: always instead of doing you Research Project i'd always try and get funding for that research project and bearing in mind that that was a time where we, you know, we really didn't see that with that many neuro psychologists, so that a lot of kids didn't get seen. So, for example, when we did our

207
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:52.760
vickihome: our Leukaemia study, we were looking at the impact of chemotherapy and radio therapy.

208
00:25:52.810 --> 00:25:55.140
vickihome: We got a small branch.

209
00:25:55.270 --> 00:25:59.340
vickihome: and so we could that there was no us like service.

210
00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:05.290
vickihome: And so we saw all of those kids. and we provided them with reports, clinical reports.

211
00:26:06.600 --> 00:26:16.570
vickihome: and we did a very formal Eur assessment, standardized, you know, like assessment which was clearly important for research. But as a result of that, when the research stopped.

212
00:26:16.800 --> 00:26:20.360
vickihome: It was no clinical citizen, so that on colleges actually

213
00:26:20.630 --> 00:26:26.030
vickihome: employed neuro psychologists, and very same thing happened in the traumatic brain injury area.

214
00:26:26.390 --> 00:26:39.490
vickihome: We did assessments on the I don't know 200 kids over 2 years, and then we we were no longer there and available because our research and our research. It finished. And so there were. There were neuroscience to come in and and

215
00:26:39.770 --> 00:26:47.150
vickihome: do that work. So I think it's by doing it. And i'm talking about in a medical, an academic medical context.

216
00:26:47.570 --> 00:26:54.940
vickihome: The research is a way to show the medical departments how useful neuro psychology can be.

217
00:26:55.100 --> 00:27:03.140
vickihome: and in that way you build your resource. And now we have this, I said, lots of neuro psychologists across all those departments.

218
00:27:05.060 --> 00:27:06.070
I think

219
00:27:06.750 --> 00:27:10.730
vickihome: you know our our clinical resources in

220
00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:14.090
he's very tiny compared to the need.

221
00:27:14.180 --> 00:27:20.360
vickihome: and we have at any one time. We've got a 6 month waiting list, so so I suppose I have always tried to

222
00:27:21.110 --> 00:27:23.180
vickihome: sip right out

223
00:27:23.530 --> 00:27:29.050
vickihome: the funded clinical work from the founded research work as much as I possibly could

224
00:27:29.090 --> 00:27:39.110
vickihome: sometimes that would sometimes it doesn't. I mean, we we have as most places. I've got a nice database with all the back clinical data in it that we can can use, but we don't.

225
00:27:39.580 --> 00:27:47.370
vickihome: We don't kind of tail out clinical assessments for research purposes. I suppose, in that particular context.

226
00:27:47.870 --> 00:27:52.160
Cliodhna Carroll: I think there's a real learning there from for the Uk, because it

227
00:27:52.560 --> 00:28:05.390
Cliodhna Carroll: my correct me if i'm wrong, Ingram. But I think, like my impression often is that it's clinicians trying to build kids business cases and on top of their own clinical work rather than kind of that, is quite a different model. To

228
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:11.710
use the research funding to to demonstrate the need to build your business case for having the service.

229
00:28:11.790 --> 00:28:16.820
Cliodhna Carroll: I I don't know, Ingram, if you've ever come across that in Uk. I know I certainly haven't, but

230
00:28:17.610 --> 00:28:22.470
Ingram Wright: I guess there are all kinds of drivers aren't there for the way that we do things. So we've talked about.

231
00:28:22.570 --> 00:28:24.620
Ingram Wright: You know what is in your mind

232
00:28:25.310 --> 00:28:37.260
Ingram Wright: as a scientist, as a neuro psychologist, as a clinical psychologist when you meet a family. But I think what you're alluding to cleaners is also a kind of service context. And there's also the kind of pressures of the work

233
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:43.510
Ingram Wright: what you needs to produce at what you need to develop, how you need to grow personally, and

234
00:28:43.830 --> 00:28:50.080
Ingram Wright: we have to reconcile all of these different drivers, don't we around our practice, I think. What's really

235
00:28:50.340 --> 00:29:01.000
Ingram Wright: powerful about hearing you talk, Vicki, You know, having picked up that book, and you know, become a You're a psychologist. I'll transform myself from a developmental psychologist into a Pedd and You' a psychologist

236
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.310
Ingram Wright: on the back of reading your work

237
00:29:04.130 --> 00:29:07.340
Ingram Wright: is to hear you talk now and to reflect on.

238
00:29:07.380 --> 00:29:13.650
Ingram Wright: I guess experience that has been accumulated over time and a perspective that's developed over. Time is.

239
00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:17.100
Ingram Wright: I think, sometimes it's hard for us to tell when we're in the middle

240
00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:22.190
Ingram Wright: of our career, or at the early stage of our career. What kind of neuropsychologists we ought

241
00:29:22.380 --> 00:29:25.140
Ingram Wright: to grow into if that makes sense. And

242
00:29:25.190 --> 00:29:31.880
Ingram Wright: I guess a big part of your role. Vicki is mentoring, supporting, nurturing. You described

243
00:29:32.110 --> 00:29:38.150
Ingram Wright: the the opportunities to be bossy. I I I can't imagine you being bossy, but I imagine there are moments.

244
00:29:38.610 --> 00:29:43.880
Ingram Wright: but but I guess a lot of the work that you'll do with people who are aspiring you. A psychologist is not about

245
00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.160
Ingram Wright: being bossing as as such.

246
00:29:46.420 --> 00:29:51.640
vickihome: No, I do have a quite impressive Italian temper.

247
00:29:53.990 --> 00:30:02.650
vickihome: but I don't usually apply it to my my stuff more to my kids. They would say

248
00:30:02.870 --> 00:30:13.600
vickihome: so. Yeah, I I I absolutely love clinical work, and you know, if I had to define myself by one label, I'm a clinical neurop psychologist. And then one thing I would not give up.

249
00:30:13.730 --> 00:30:26.440
vickihome: And and as i'm. Not that, far from retiring, the one thing I really will not keep up is seeing seeing patients and their families. But the other thing I absolutely. Love is working with young people.

250
00:30:26.620 --> 00:30:29.580
vickihome: and my my team is.

251
00:30:29.810 --> 00:30:37.230
vickihome: you know, research team. It's going to be team. We have a number of new neuro psychologists, but we have lots of fighting.

252
00:30:38.380 --> 00:30:45.000
vickihome: Research is clinical psychologists, and we have a an intern program, a volunteer intern program.

253
00:30:45.340 --> 00:30:48.580
vickihome: Which is, it's amazing to me that these young people

254
00:30:48.950 --> 00:30:58.170
vickihome: come and give their time often for our concussion study on weekends and after hours to to work with us, and

255
00:30:58.220 --> 00:31:01.080
vickihome: they just so inspiring. They do all my

256
00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:07.700
vickihome: my reading for me, and you know all whenever i'm with them. I love the fact that they really

257
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:18.680
vickihome: challenge the ideas that you have, because they should get all you get stuck in the ways. So it's just great to to have people challenging ideas, bringing up to date with things. And

258
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:21.720
vickihome: and in that context, I think more recently.

259
00:31:21.830 --> 00:31:30.160
vickihome: in so a lot of my research was really focused on describing problems. How many papers are there on cognitive problems after brain entry.

260
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:36.720
vickihome: And in the last 10 years probably, we've really changed tech and and thought.

261
00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:42.540
vickihome: You know anything that we're going to learn now is really incremental. And all this work is sitting

262
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:43.930
vickihome: in journals

263
00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:54.480
vickihome: in books that no one in the community reads. And actually, how can we make it? How can we implement it and and make it available to others? So so a lot of our

264
00:31:54.510 --> 00:31:57.020
vickihome: our research more recently has been

265
00:31:57.170 --> 00:32:02.560
vickihome: trying to apply the knowledge that we've developed into interventions.

266
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:09.550
vickihome: And one of my favorite stories is our online intervention for parents and kids who have

267
00:32:09.670 --> 00:32:14.410
severe life threatening disorders. And so they very traumatized. And and

268
00:32:14.560 --> 00:32:24.410
vickihome: and because our research shows very clearly that parent mental health is a big predictor of child outcome, we really wanted to support those families. So

269
00:32:24.470 --> 00:32:33.820
vickihome: we we built this acceptance commitment therapy intervention. This doesn't sound very near a psychological, I know. But we did have this. The clinical psychologist in the room, too.

270
00:32:35.090 --> 00:32:41.110
vickihome: which we tried to deliver face to face, and of course the parents would not come into the hospital, so we had to learn

271
00:32:41.140 --> 00:32:56.530
vickihome: how to do this intervention online. And we tried all these different platforms that were really clunky. You might remember, go to meetings and things like that. But Anyway, we we developed this, this intervention which parents absolutely loved.

272
00:32:56.540 --> 00:33:02.740
vickihome: and Dad's actually came along to it because we did it after hours. So it was just, and it was a great intervention

273
00:33:02.850 --> 00:33:14.690
vickihome: and made a really big difference to families. We got great feedback, because then came Covid, and we all had to go online. And this intervention was there ready to go. So I think those kinds of

274
00:33:15.090 --> 00:33:25.410
vickihome: things using new technology and new ideas, and also listening to your consumers and what they want is really important. And the other area that we we're doing

275
00:33:25.520 --> 00:33:31.840
vickihome: quite a bit now is the whole digital health app kind of area, and that's really exciting, too, because

276
00:33:32.390 --> 00:33:40.850
vickihome: i'm a big aussie rules for Paul Fan and I get now to go and talk to clubs and talk to players about concussion, and how

277
00:33:41.010 --> 00:33:45.320
vickihome: our app and etc. So it really feels like

278
00:33:45.620 --> 00:33:52.450
vickihome: It's really rewarding now that we're actually doing something that people are interested in them and can find useful.

279
00:33:53.260 --> 00:33:54.390
Ingram Wright: And it I

280
00:33:54.940 --> 00:33:59.610
Ingram Wright: I mean, there's a hint of an apology for for for doing therapy there, and

281
00:33:59.830 --> 00:34:01.310
Ingram Wright: Vicky arounds

282
00:34:02.060 --> 00:34:18.880
Ingram Wright: the that interface with clinical psychology. I I I find myself on a similar journey, and becoming, you know, I consider myself a novice act therapist, but realizing, I suppose, that we we do need to translate some of our diagnostic biases into something which is.

283
00:34:18.980 --> 00:34:26.440
Ingram Wright: which has a more diverse application and and and an impact. And, as you say, recognize that

284
00:34:26.600 --> 00:34:30.830
Ingram Wright: actually some of the most powerful interventions of with the wider system, aren't they, rather than

285
00:34:31.380 --> 00:34:33.320
Ingram Wright: spotting an association between a

286
00:34:33.650 --> 00:34:40.190
Ingram Wright: form of temporal pathology and a and a memory problem. I mean that clearly has value. And we mustn't

287
00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:43.030
Ingram Wright: disregard our

288
00:34:43.870 --> 00:34:52.130
Ingram Wright: foundations, I suppose, as a neuropsychologist. But we do need to be able to translate that into an environment that's changed quite radically in terms of where interventions happen.

289
00:34:52.730 --> 00:34:56.639
vickihome: Yeah. And I I would really argue strongly that

290
00:34:56.730 --> 00:35:12.120
vickihome: that intervention that I talked about would not have been as effective If there wasn't a neur, a psychologist in the room, because when families would say, oh, my child is doing that, my child is doing this. We could then say to them, Well, you know they're recovering it's pretty typical.

291
00:35:12.120 --> 00:35:27.340
vickihome: whereas the clinical site didn't have that knowledge. So you know, I I do think that we have really key knowledge in when we're working with kids with brain entry that we need to be able to to contribute to any therapy that kids have.

292
00:35:27.390 --> 00:35:28.150
Ingram Wright: Yes.

293
00:35:28.550 --> 00:35:32.650
Cliodhna Carroll: is something in what is neuro psychology? Isn't it of?

294
00:35:32.810 --> 00:35:41.880
Cliodhna Carroll: You know. What what is your psychology, anyway? Is it about kind of testing and identifying weaknesses and strengths? Kind of in in cognitive processes?

295
00:35:42.070 --> 00:35:50.640
Cliodhna Carroll: And I think that's a beautiful thing about pediatrics, particularly when I've, you know, worked with with pediatric patients. Is that this is a kid

296
00:35:50.870 --> 00:35:56.710
Cliodhna Carroll: like this case. You know. This is one part of them where I think kind of when I work with adults.

297
00:35:57.220 --> 00:36:11.920
Cliodhna Carroll: And this is a very generic statement, like kind of really, but a lot of the adults I work with like this: Taking this neurological condition becomes a huge part of their identity. Where we kids it doesn't it doesn't become so all consuming, maybe, in the systems around them.

298
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:26.910
Cliodhna Carroll: But that's the use of your psychology for me, and why I love passing on to kind of doctorate students and clinical psychologies like your psychology, you get to use every single clinical skill that you've ever learned everything. It's all in there.

299
00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:29.790
vickihome: Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I think that that

300
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:39.130
vickihome: you know we've only got ourselves to play by if we put ourselves in a box, because I think our skill set is just so valuable in so many different contexts.

301
00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:53.940
vickihome: And you know the proof of that is the way we've grown as a profession in the time when the health but in the health dollar is really decreased. I'm. I'm. Not sure in the Uk. Or from the people I know. It seems that it's a growing profession in

302
00:36:54.060 --> 00:37:04.310
vickihome: in Australia, particularly in the East coast. It's just it's growing so fast that we just can't keep up with the demand for your psychologists. And

303
00:37:04.420 --> 00:37:05.630
vickihome: okay, and

304
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:11.530
vickihome: if I say to to my students who doing research that

305
00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:21.970
vickihome: the other element is that a psychologist? We don't realize how valuable we are in that research space doesn't matter what what is being research, how degrees

306
00:37:21.990 --> 00:37:33.830
vickihome: have so much statistics and research methodology that you go into a hospital in an academic hospital, and they they want to do research, and you know, and that on his students can make a major

307
00:37:34.930 --> 00:37:38.190
vickihome: a change to a very poorly

308
00:37:38.370 --> 00:37:43.340
vickihome: developed protocol. Just because I know that work. And and so you put

309
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:47.030
vickihome: one of our students in those kinds of contexts, and

310
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:48.630
vickihome: people love them.

311
00:37:48.670 --> 00:37:50.790
vickihome: The

312
00:37:50.830 --> 00:37:59.160
vickihome: it's, you know. I think we've got such a broad skill set, so you can work clinically and work in research. You can work in policy, making like an education.

313
00:37:59.200 --> 00:38:00.790
vickihome: Each features.

314
00:38:02.700 --> 00:38:04.570
Ingram Wright: Lena has a

315
00:38:04.850 --> 00:38:11.670
Ingram Wright: confession, Vicki, which brings us on to the the the the question that I was keen to ask you, and I think

316
00:38:11.690 --> 00:38:14.580
Ingram Wright: it's sort of something we've implicitly addressed.

317
00:38:14.610 --> 00:38:33.040
Ingram Wright: going forwards, particularly around the distinction around pediatric, an adult neuropsychology. We mix and we're quite friendly with our adult neuro psychology. Colleagues. Aren't we vicki I've I've conceded a a seat on this podcast to cleaner, but cleaner you you've. You've faced a bit of a dilemma haven't you around

318
00:38:33.290 --> 00:38:36.000
Ingram Wright: Peter the pull of pediatric psychology.

319
00:38:36.370 --> 00:38:39.740
Ingram Wright: the enthusiasm that that is, that is brimming

320
00:38:39.870 --> 00:38:45.570
Ingram Wright: from Vicky's experience around the richness of the discipline. I mean, are you persuaded

321
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:46.550
Ingram Wright: it

322
00:38:47.240 --> 00:38:48.380
Cliodhna Carroll: system?

323
00:38:48.520 --> 00:39:03.520
Cliodhna Carroll: Yeah, like. I don't like Ingram and I. We've had this conversation multiple times. So I finished my qualification and adult clinical neuro psychology 2 years ago and immediately had a midlife crisis where I thought I'm just going to do the pediatric neuro psychology training straight away

324
00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:16.800
Cliodhna Carroll: and then realize that maybe I should have a break. But I like I've always kind of put, you know. Have that pull back to pediatrics and have that like I love working. I love working in your psychology. It's my absolute passion, but

325
00:39:17.120 --> 00:39:27.130
it's just something really special, I think, When I have, You know, I've had some opportunities to work with with children kind of when I was training, and and even still now, under the supervision of pediatric

326
00:39:27.270 --> 00:39:30.140
Cliodhna Carroll: and neuro psychology colleagues. But i'm

327
00:39:30.790 --> 00:39:38.160
Cliodhna Carroll: there's something really special about working with kids. But I I guess I wonder, Vicki, what your advice might be to somebody who's having that

328
00:39:38.190 --> 00:39:41.160
Cliodhna Carroll: dilemma. Is it adults? Is it peeds?

329
00:39:42.370 --> 00:39:53.870
vickihome: Yeah, I often get asked this question, and just kind of for for disclosure. So my first job was in a geriatric rehabilitation center.

330
00:39:53.870 --> 00:40:09.990
vickihome: and through my career, because I'm an adult trained as well through my career. I've worked in lots of adult contexts. I worked at what we call the I in the hospital. Here I worked in an adult neurology clinic. So it's done quite a lot of work in adults. And

331
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.860
vickihome: no, I I think that it all of those different contexts are great.

332
00:40:16.100 --> 00:40:17.770
vickihome: I think what I like about

333
00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:21.170
vickihome: pediatrics. I think kids are easy to test

334
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:29.500
vickihome: adults. It's really hard to get past the barrier of on them being tested, whereas kids just walk in, and it's just like school.

335
00:40:29.550 --> 00:40:39.460
vickihome: or they don't when they little, and they, you know, climb under the table, and you've got to climb under the table with them. So so I like that kind of I like that kind of dynamic, and I like that

336
00:40:39.530 --> 00:40:41.670
vickihome: often. There's a competent

337
00:40:41.950 --> 00:40:46.310
vickihome: set of parents there that can put into practice and support whatever

338
00:40:46.530 --> 00:40:50.190
vickihome: we're suggesting. So it's quite a hopeful.

339
00:40:50.780 --> 00:41:00.470
vickihome: But you know, I think my my advice to to even my best students who i'd love to stay working in pediatrics is. But it's really important not to kind of pigeonhole yourself.

340
00:41:00.540 --> 00:41:04.170
vickihome: One of the beginning of the career you need to, because, you know.

341
00:41:04.430 --> 00:41:11.440
vickihome: if you don't try something like geriatrically, you never got to know what you like it or not. So. And then.

342
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:12.690
vickihome: if you.

343
00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:27.380
vickihome: if you've never tried it, you never going to get a job in it later on, because you're going to be pigeon hold as a pediatric. You're a psychologist. I I sometimes get asked if I have to give evidence in court. How can I possibly

344
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.950
vickihome: have a sister 25 year old and

345
00:41:32.250 --> 00:41:33.060
vickihome: well.

346
00:41:34.470 --> 00:41:42.980
vickihome: not only because he had his injury when he was a kid, but because we've got skills that can really cover that in the

347
00:41:43.240 --> 00:41:45.320
vickihome: I think so. The one

348
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:55.520
vickihome: thing that I think is different in pediatrics, and also probably different in geriatrics is, you have to have an understanding that there's a rapid development.

349
00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:56.710
vickihome: and I

350
00:41:56.900 --> 00:42:00.950
vickihome: I was never more conscious of this than when I worked with.

351
00:42:01.070 --> 00:42:17.210
vickihome: and Robots and and Tom mainly developing the test of every day attention for children, because they obviously have to test every day attention which was great. And you know, if you look at the manual, that they had a very small standardization sample. Now, if you want to translate that

352
00:42:17.390 --> 00:42:23.960
vickihome: for children, we can't have a small standardization sample You've got it got to have kids at every

353
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.080
vickihome: part of the you know that age trajectory. So it's. You know it's really that

354
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:34.590
vickihome: acknowledgment that normal kids change rapidly, and if we're going to.

355
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:44.580
vickihome: they accurately what we test we have to be using really good norms to to compare to. So I don't know whether that answered your question, but

356
00:42:44.610 --> 00:42:46.940
vickihome: I think I think it's.

357
00:42:47.570 --> 00:42:52.780
vickihome: I think it's. You know, psychology, the discipline that inspires me

358
00:42:53.130 --> 00:43:00.910
vickihome: and the brain rather than a particular age group. But in terms of who I like to interact with best as probably kids.

359
00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:08.970
Cliodhna Carroll: And I think, like for me, you know, my midlife crisis, do I do? Pete's like kind of neuropsychology training and straight off the back of adults.

360
00:43:09.820 --> 00:43:28.100
Cliodhna Carroll: I think I remember going to a podcast. I would go into it an online training event and thinking, oh, my gosh, wow! This is! This is massive like this. Isn't just a i'll just tag on peeds like, and it'll be a quick, you know. 6 months i'll learn Peeds neuro psychology.

361
00:43:28.100 --> 00:43:34.300
Cliodhna Carroll: It really does feel like there's there's a lot of additional stuff in pediatric psychology.

362
00:43:34.450 --> 00:43:41.000
Cliodhna Carroll: and and I think that that's it's not not necessarily always recognized that this is a different.

363
00:43:41.090 --> 00:43:45.360
Cliodhna Carroll: You know there's similarities in there, as you say, but but it is different.

364
00:43:46.010 --> 00:43:47.670
vickihome: Yeah. And I think the whole

365
00:43:47.840 --> 00:44:01.930
vickihome: interaction with schools is a really big one. and if we're talking about case with the transition points are really important. And and so, while you might see an adult once, and that's fine

366
00:44:02.010 --> 00:44:04.290
vickihome: with kids who've had a significant injury.

367
00:44:04.310 --> 00:44:10.850
vickihome: You really can't leave it at that, because you know, if that would, if they were preschool, and then they had to go into kingdom. That's a big.

368
00:44:11.130 --> 00:44:23.630
vickihome: a big jump, and you have to spend a lot of time supporting families and kindness that point, and then they go into school, and then they go into high school, and then they have to find a job. So you know those transitions are really important, and

369
00:44:24.070 --> 00:44:33.420
vickihome: of all of those transitions I think the most challenging. But the most interesting is adolescents, and, you know, working with adolescents who have a brain injury

370
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:34.910
vickihome: is just

371
00:44:34.980 --> 00:44:38.190
vickihome: but the hardest thing, I think the only time.

372
00:44:38.220 --> 00:44:42.110
vickihome: or maybe a few other times. But the only time I've really been

373
00:44:44.010 --> 00:44:51.940
vickihome: really, really angrily, was by a 14 year old girl who'd had quite a severe brain injury

374
00:44:52.010 --> 00:45:11.620
vickihome: who had been a really good basketball player. She couldn't play basketball anymore, and I was telling her how she was doing quite well, cognitively, and she just like we set me. Say, I don't really care. You know I can't play basketball anymore, and I think it's that you know that the loss of identity in that age group when they're quite aware.

375
00:45:11.620 --> 00:45:24.620
vickihome: But I've still got the feature, 8 of them which is now being derailed. That is, it's such a a critical time. So it's not just pediatrics. It's the stage of that that childhood path. It's also really important.

376
00:45:25.600 --> 00:45:34.660
Ingram Wright: And what's it? I guess what's interesting, Vicki: about the different, I mean, I suppose, where we started, how one might define one's self right that you're saying, actually, i'm not.

377
00:45:35.290 --> 00:45:48.080
Ingram Wright: I've always been exclusively a pediatric neuro psychologist, I mean, like, I said, I consider myself coming from a strong developmental tradition, I I really enjoy the challenges of assessment in infancy it's a very different

378
00:45:48.130 --> 00:45:51.200
Ingram Wright: space. To occupy requires a different skill. Set.

379
00:45:51.310 --> 00:46:00.570
Ingram Wright: The same is true. Isn't it working with adults, cleaner, working with older adults, working with a different in a very different developmental context.

380
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:05.360
Ingram Wright: Vicki. I was struck when I was doing a Phd. Working alongside people who were

381
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:25.360
Ingram Wright: working within a developmental framework, but with with older adults working, looking at, aging. And again, as you point out, a very dynamic space to be working in where a developmental perspective is entirely appropriate, and maybe we should stop dividing ourselves up in these conventional ways. Yes, it's helpful to communicate. I'm. A child neuropsychologist.

382
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:32.400
Ingram Wright: i'm an adult neuropsychologist. But it's probably not how we would choose to define ourselves in in 2 categorical a way.

383
00:46:33.130 --> 00:46:39.400
vickihome: Yeah, I agree. And I I was saying, I thought there was similarities between the paediatric and the

384
00:46:39.750 --> 00:46:41.260
vickihome: the issue is about

385
00:46:42.310 --> 00:46:47.390
vickihome: being considered and thinking of. Be patient, not thinking of what you're going to do.

386
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:48.250
Cliodhna Carroll: Hmm.

387
00:46:48.540 --> 00:46:57.470
vickihome: Your patient and I, you know, I I suppose I think of some of the experience I I've had with the adults where, when I first started I would you might be

388
00:46:57.740 --> 00:47:16.830
vickihome: talking in long sentences, and you know, older people, maybe more time to process, or they've forgotten the hearing aids, and I thought that they were demented. But actually they just couldn't keep what I was saying. Or now. Now I've watched some of some of my students, and they're trying to get their elderly patients

389
00:47:16.830 --> 00:47:18.250
vickihome: to use an ipad.

390
00:47:18.470 --> 00:47:30.780
vickihome: and sure some can use it really well, but others just do not get it, and they never going to get it for various reasons, not necessarily because they've demented. So you know, I think all of those issues about

391
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:35.460
vickihome: really again coming back to being aware of person in front of you. And

392
00:47:36.470 --> 00:47:42.800
vickihome: if you've got an environment for them that is optimal for that for them to show you what they can do.

393
00:47:43.050 --> 00:47:45.230
vickihome: and making sure, making sure you

394
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.310
vickihome: do as much as you can to get that. So I agree

395
00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:54.090
vickihome: with Ingram. I think that we can divide ourselves far too narrowly

396
00:47:54.210 --> 00:48:00.790
vickihome: when we've got this board we do have a set of skills that can cover the age range so long as we're observant.

397
00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:13.220
Cliodhna Carroll: I was at a conference last week. We had to get together Conference. It's a conference here that's been set up in the Uk that really looks at families after brain injury.

398
00:48:13.290 --> 00:48:16.690
Cliodhna Carroll: But one of the speakers spoke about this idea of

399
00:48:16.830 --> 00:48:18.650
Cliodhna Carroll: like break bread with us.

400
00:48:19.200 --> 00:48:26.090
Cliodhna Carroll: and that idea of you know it's really what you're talking about. Isn't it like kind of come and break bread with us. Find out how it is for us.

401
00:48:26.100 --> 00:48:34.940
Cliodhna Carroll: It's not about how it is just in this. You know our kind of hour and a half assessment is all of the other stuff that we need to kind of bring to the table. And

402
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:46.940
Cliodhna Carroll: you know, if you can understand us. it's almost like kind of that sense isn't it, if you can understand us like kind of, then then you can help us like kind of, and we can understand you.

403
00:48:47.260 --> 00:48:49.780
vickihome: and we can trust you because You've made it

404
00:48:49.920 --> 00:49:00.180
vickihome: understand us. Yeah, I mean, I I Some of the most confronting things I've done is some home visits with families that keep very severe injuries. And

405
00:49:00.260 --> 00:49:02.630
vickihome: no, I come out just

406
00:49:02.930 --> 00:49:11.900
vickihome: being so admiring of the family, and you know, having to manage trackings and pigs, and you know, lifting kids here and there and

407
00:49:12.070 --> 00:49:16.230
vickihome: oh, you know, catching it when they're breaking things and throwing things. And

408
00:49:16.330 --> 00:49:23.370
vickihome: it it's just it's so different to the the test room that it's really important to see that.

409
00:49:23.650 --> 00:49:29.650
vickihome: Not too often. But it does just remind you of of them.

410
00:49:29.700 --> 00:49:31.620
vickihome: How difficult it can be.

411
00:49:32.900 --> 00:49:35.070
Ingram Wright: Vicki. We've asked you a number of

412
00:49:35.640 --> 00:49:40.430
Ingram Wright: what ought to have been challenging questions. But you've managed them admirably. But i'm

413
00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:45.370
Ingram Wright: i'm gonna make things slightly more difficult for us all now, with both technically

414
00:49:45.890 --> 00:49:51.760
Ingram Wright: and and intellectually. We've got. We've got some questions from a genuine child, neuropsychologist.

415
00:49:52.010 --> 00:49:57.640
Ingram Wright: Eliot, who is 5 years old. Who's it? Son of a friend of mine

416
00:49:57.780 --> 00:50:03.800
Ingram Wright: and has submitted, knowing that you were going to be on the podcast, has submitted a series of questions that he would like to

417
00:50:03.870 --> 00:50:09.830
Ingram Wright: a pediatric neuro psychologist to answer about the brain. And I think you've kindly agreed to answer

418
00:50:09.970 --> 00:50:12.260
Ingram Wright: Elliott's questions. Is that is that right?

419
00:50:12.540 --> 00:50:17.250
vickihome: And you Haven't heard these which is extraordinarily brave.

420
00:50:19.420 --> 00:50:30.200
Ingram Wright: I'm a pretty psychologist. I'm used to difficult questions from to the I I I have had the advantage of just full disclosure, and I have had the advantage of listening to these questions, so i'm!

421
00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:41.210
Ingram Wright: I'm quite happy to think on my feet. But having had some fore warning of what the questions are. If you want to pass on any of the questions, Vicki, I think we'll allow you. There are 7 questions, 250.

422
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:47.410
Ingram Wright: Okay and and and cleaner if you can do the co-host thing of counting Vicki's passes so

423
00:50:47.620 --> 00:50:52.870
Ingram Wright: any that vicky passes on. I'm happy to answer. We'll only give you 3 passes. Vicki.

424
00:50:53.190 --> 00:50:56.130
vickihome: Okay. Hmm.

425
00:50:56.670 --> 00:50:57.940
Ingram Wright: Right now, I'm: just

426
00:50:58.610 --> 00:50:59.370
Ingram Wright: go on.

427
00:51:01.540 --> 00:51:02.660
Ingram Wright: You happy with that.

428
00:51:02.910 --> 00:51:03.570
vickihome: Yeah.

429
00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:06.700
Ingram Wright: Great. So this is the slight.

430
00:51:06.720 --> 00:51:09.760
Ingram Wright: technically challenging bit where I have to share my

431
00:51:10.050 --> 00:51:12.360
Ingram Wright: screen and share the sound so you can hear it

432
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:19.690
Ingram Wright: so I can see you both of the key. But your small postage stamps on my screen. I'm just going to open up this email so that

433
00:51:20.900 --> 00:51:22.750
Ingram Wright: Vicky, you ready for the first question.

434
00:51:23.080 --> 00:51:24.240
vickihome: I am.

435
00:51:24.590 --> 00:51:34.540
Ingram Wright: So what i'm gonna do, Vicki, the the audio might not be great in terms of Elliott's voice, because it's being played through the system. But what i'll do is i'll edit in some nice pristine

436
00:51:34.560 --> 00:51:39.200
Ingram Wright: versions of his questions, so that the audience, listening to this can hear it.

437
00:51:40.040 --> 00:51:44.560
Ingram Wright: So he's the first question you can choose to answer or pass right. Are you ready?

438
00:51:45.060 --> 00:51:46.420
Yeah, I am I'm going.

439
00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:52.670
Why do we have dreams?

440
00:51:54.940 --> 00:51:56.440
Ingram Wright: What do you think about that one?

441
00:51:57.020 --> 00:52:03.910
vickihome: I'm not sure. That's when you're a psychologist can answer. It's more.

442
00:52:05.910 --> 00:52:09.520
vickihome: Oh, well, I can. I can drag up my

443
00:52:10.150 --> 00:52:13.630
vickihome: limited sleep knowledge and talk about

444
00:52:13.950 --> 00:52:16.000
vickihome: rem sleep, and

445
00:52:18.060 --> 00:52:26.520
vickihome: how that's the stage where you have dreams, but i'm not quite sure. I can say why we have dreams. So I I might have to give a pass on that one

446
00:52:27.890 --> 00:52:34.610
Ingram Wright: lots of great research, isn't it on sleep and learning and consolidation of learning and the role of sleep. And I guess.

447
00:52:35.220 --> 00:52:43.760
Ingram Wright: as you point out, it it doesn't necessarily fully address the question of why we have dreams, does it? But it does appear to be some.

448
00:52:44.720 --> 00:52:55.230
Ingram Wright: certainly some clear. Your cognitive functions of sleep and consequences of disruption to sleep, and is a common thing isn't it. We would see in kids with acquired brain injury.

449
00:52:55.740 --> 00:53:07.740
Cliodhna Carroll: I think it's interesting isn't it when you speak with people, with neurological conditions about their dreams as well, particularly those who might have physical disabilities, and whether or not that manifest in their dreams.

450
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:12.700
Cliodhna Carroll: and how you know he, their physical or cognitive beings, can.

451
00:53:13.130 --> 00:53:19.250
Cliodhna Carroll: Physical and cognitive functioning can be in dreams. It's always an interesting conversation, I think, having those conversations.

452
00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:30.700
Ingram Wright: I think, in terms of Elliott's questions, though in our the rules of this particular game, Vicki, it's posed a problem because I think that was probably half a pass if if we if we're counting it, we're counting it strictly

453
00:53:31.240 --> 00:53:38.150
Ingram Wright: so it's even more of a challenge for you to count half marks. I'll put a half a pass. Would you like the next question, Vicki?

454
00:53:38.310 --> 00:53:46.380
Ingram Wright: I'm. Hopefully. Not all that hard. But I think that was the one of the hardest one I don't know why it's in this particular order. It's somewhat random, but he's the next one from Elliot.

455
00:53:50.220 --> 00:53:54.880
Do I really have to wear a helmet to protect my brain.

456
00:53:56.940 --> 00:54:07.370
vickihome: Well, Elliot, that's one I can definitely make it comment on. I think that the answer to that is, it depends on what you're doing.

457
00:54:07.600 --> 00:54:10.450
vickihome: So if you're riding a bike.

458
00:54:10.750 --> 00:54:25.320
vickihome: or if you're skiing, or snowboarding, or playing cricket. really important to where helmet, because it will protect you from missiles like cricket balls, hitting your head and and damaging your brain

459
00:54:26.290 --> 00:54:32.780
vickihome: if you playing something like junior soccer or similar kinds of sports.

460
00:54:32.910 --> 00:54:38.820
vickihome: Sometimes a helmet can get in the way. because it makes your head bigger.

461
00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:42.330
vickihome: and it it puts more stress on your neck.

462
00:54:42.520 --> 00:54:46.700
vickihome: And also with some kids, make some feel like they

463
00:54:46.710 --> 00:54:48.200
vickihome: mystery in principle.

464
00:54:48.350 --> 00:54:59.180
vickihome: and to take risks when they wouldn't otherwise do it. And that can mean that that kids are more likely to have injuries. So I think my answer is.

465
00:54:59.550 --> 00:55:03.070
vickihome: Sometimes it's good to wear a helmet, and sometimes it's not.

466
00:55:04.990 --> 00:55:16.000
Ingram Wright: I think Elliott's parents will be really pleased to have your definitive advice on this at topic. Vicki. Thank you very much. I I think there was no even half passes on that question. Cleaner

467
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:21.050
Ingram Wright: Finish shaking your hands. We're fine with that one you ready for question. 3. The key!

468
00:55:21.210 --> 00:55:22.210
vickihome: Yes, I am.

469
00:55:26.150 --> 00:55:28.910
What foods are good for your brain.

470
00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:34.320
Ingram Wright: I think that's a difficult one. When I heard this, I thought. Oh, I don't know.

471
00:55:35.250 --> 00:55:40.920
vickihome: I think it's a difficult one to you know. I think it kind of the the

472
00:55:41.100 --> 00:55:45.490
vickihome: All Wives tail would be fish oil might be the answer to that.

473
00:55:45.530 --> 00:55:59.680
vickihome: But but I I think really a healthy diet and a healthy lifestyle is really important. So everything in moderation to me is is good. So you know, even to the extent that sometimes

474
00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:09.370
vickihome: kids will will be told that sugar is bad for for them. But, in fact, we all need some sugar to keep us active and not get for tea, so we do need some

475
00:56:09.390 --> 00:56:16.380
vickihome: some sugar, but we also need vegetables and proteins, and so on. So so I think it's really

476
00:56:17.290 --> 00:56:23.430
vickihome: making sure that you've got a broad diet that's important, particularly when you're young, and your brain is developing.

477
00:56:24.560 --> 00:56:28.530
vickihome: And I suppose, just as a bit of an aside, we do know that

478
00:56:28.610 --> 00:56:36.010
vickihome: for kids who who live in very disadvantaged environments and don't get enough to at all.

479
00:56:36.470 --> 00:56:43.690
vickihome: We see that their brains actually don't develop very well. So food is really critical to developing a healthy brain.

480
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:46.020
Thank you, Vicki.

481
00:56:47.340 --> 00:56:49.510
Ingram Wright: Question for familiar. Here we go.

482
00:56:51.980 --> 00:56:56.430
Is it really true that half your brain is made out of water?

483
00:56:57.850 --> 00:56:59.310
Ingram Wright: There's a technical question for you.

484
00:57:00.930 --> 00:57:07.970
vickihome: More than half of your brain. Is water actually so? So? Yes, that's definitely true.

485
00:57:08.740 --> 00:57:12.220
Ingram Wright: Thank you. It's a lovely succinct answer.

486
00:57:13.710 --> 00:57:15.900
vickihome: It's lovely to see. Question, too.

487
00:57:16.070 --> 00:57:18.900
Why can't you remember being a baby.

488
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:32.870
vickihome: Now that's a really interesting question. and oh. I will give you my thoughts on it might not be the perfect answer.

489
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:35.250
vickihome: But memories

490
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:39.380
vickihome: rely a lot on our language skills.

491
00:57:40.070 --> 00:57:42.620
vickihome: And so, when we remember things.

492
00:57:42.660 --> 00:57:52.730
vickihome: we often remember a conversation or the labels that we put on things rather than the smell or the visual picture.

493
00:57:53.010 --> 00:57:53.710
vickihome: and

494
00:57:53.940 --> 00:58:00.040
vickihome: when my babies we don't have any language, and so we don't have any of those labels to put on what's happening to us.

495
00:58:00.260 --> 00:58:08.280
vickihome: but pretty much by age, 2 or by h 3. We can start doing that really well, and that's when we start having really good memories

496
00:58:09.530 --> 00:58:17.010
vickihome: in saying that just to give a little bit more information, some people who had very traumatic things happen to them when they were babies.

497
00:58:17.030 --> 00:58:27.840
vickihome: They have really clear memories of smells that might have been around at the time, like If they happen to be in a really nasty fire.

498
00:58:28.050 --> 00:58:35.350
vickihome: they'll remember that smell. But they won't. Remember any of the words around it. So I hope that answers your question.

499
00:58:36.090 --> 00:58:41.070
Ingram Wright: Wonderful answer, Vicki. Thank you. and got 2 more questions. I think

500
00:58:41.590 --> 00:58:54.600
Ingram Wright: you Haven't used any of your passes yet. I'm. I'm slightly worried about what what do we do if you, if you finish these questions in credit, and you've you've only half passed on one question.

501
00:58:54.850 --> 00:58:56.240
Ingram Wright: We'll have to send you some

502
00:58:56.700 --> 00:58:58.970
Ingram Wright: book that, or something like that. Is it

503
00:58:59.340 --> 00:59:01.080
vickihome: as a credit?

504
00:59:01.120 --> 00:59:06.780
vickihome: Next time I see you. You can come on the podcast and refuse to answer any questions in future.

505
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:08.090
Ingram Wright: And

506
00:59:08.170 --> 00:59:11.740
Ingram Wright: here's question Number 6 penultimate question from Elliot.

507
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:18.570
Is your brain really walnut-shaped.

508
00:59:20.590 --> 00:59:25.160
Ingram Wright: So not that another technical question. Is your brain really walnut shaped

509
00:59:25.980 --> 00:59:32.430
vickihome: it it's so full that shapes, and you know it's so. It's like it will not in that has, you know, 2 pieces that

510
00:59:32.640 --> 00:59:39.440
vickihome: to pull apart hopefully, not when you're alive. But yeah, it is a bit worn out, and it's a big kind of

511
00:59:40.240 --> 00:59:47.390
vickihome: on the outside to like a walnut. So all of the the the brain has lots and lots of folds in it

512
00:59:47.480 --> 00:59:48.740
vickihome: that

513
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:53.970
vickihome: growing and get more and more over time from the time when when you're

514
00:59:55.450 --> 01:00:01.830
vickihome: before you born to the time you born. So yeah, I think I think that's a really good way of describing it.

515
01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:11.320
Ingram Wright: You think, Vicki, Can I ask it? No, I maybe shouldn't ask a follow up question. I don't want to contaminate Elliot's questions. But I suppose

516
01:00:11.890 --> 01:00:19.370
Ingram Wright: these questions about our understanding our brain are quite important, aren't they to communicating with families? So

517
01:00:19.500 --> 01:00:21.820
Ingram Wright: when I heard Elliott's questions, I thought

518
01:00:22.050 --> 01:00:30.960
Ingram Wright: mit

519
01:00:31.160 --> 01:00:41.230
Ingram Wright: vulnerable our brains might be because of their shape because of the anatomical aspects of how the brain fits into the skull, etc. All of these things are

520
01:00:41.650 --> 01:00:48.740
Ingram Wright: relevant aren't they to our work. They're not necessarily something we would say, actually, that's for the neurosurgeons or the radiologists to talk to you about.

521
01:00:49.850 --> 01:00:57.800
vickihome: Absolutely. I mean, I think that last question about the the the shape really gives the opportunity to talk about

522
01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:14.760
vickihome: how the brain starts off is quite smooth, and as the volume grows and grows, it doesn't have a bigger space to to grow into, and so it folds itself over and over again, and all those falls are critical to how well it functions. I agree.

523
01:01:16.080 --> 01:01:17.220
Ingram Wright: I think I would.

524
01:01:17.570 --> 01:01:28.660
Ingram Wright: And you a psychologist. I think he may well be on that pathway. I'm hoping Well, Elliot will no doubt be interesting interested to listen to this podcast, and maybe he can make a decision afterwards.

525
01:01:30.260 --> 01:01:31.670
Ingram Wright: Here's his last question.

526
01:01:35.340 --> 01:01:41.460
How can my brain? How can our brains think about our own thoughts?

527
01:01:43.510 --> 01:01:45.200
vickihome: I think that's possibly

528
01:01:45.420 --> 01:01:49.050
Ingram Wright: the most difficult of the questions that we've saved it for last?

529
01:01:49.240 --> 01:01:51.770
Ingram Wright: How can our brains think of our own thoughts?

530
01:01:52.810 --> 01:01:56.280
vickihome: Oh, so I think I think

531
01:01:56.660 --> 01:02:00.430
vickihome: our own thoughts are from our brains, so

532
01:02:00.620 --> 01:02:03.780
vickihome: we can. We can.

533
01:02:04.080 --> 01:02:12.140
vickihome: being a certain situation, for example, and we can feel something. And then, on the basis of that, we can put that into some kind of context.

534
01:02:12.670 --> 01:02:22.070
vickihome: that the brain then interprets for us, and and often what happens is the that process ends up in some kind of language based

535
01:02:24.110 --> 01:02:25.500
vickihome: output. So

536
01:02:26.620 --> 01:02:35.670
vickihome: so. But the stimulus might not be language based. but what our brain does is translate it into those words.

537
01:02:36.780 --> 01:02:39.170
vickihome: and that's a bit of a clunk kind of it, but

538
01:02:39.220 --> 01:02:42.150
vickihome: it's it's great. I can drink.

539
01:02:43.630 --> 01:02:50.640
Ingram Wright: Well, thank you very much for answering Elliott's questions. Now I've I've just got to work out how to stop screen sharing.

540
01:02:50.820 --> 01:02:51.700
You have done it.

541
01:02:53.060 --> 01:02:59.410
Ingram Wright: We can see what's 6 and a half.

542
01:03:00.090 --> 01:03:01.160
Ingram Wright: Bye bye.

543
01:03:01.570 --> 01:03:02.520
vickihome: it's tricky.

544
01:03:02.630 --> 01:03:04.430
Ingram Wright: really tricky questions.

545
01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:05.500
Ingram Wright: and I think

546
01:03:06.610 --> 01:03:17.260
Ingram Wright: I think one of the thing you talked about what you enjoyed about working with children, Vicki, and I think sometimes the only ones asked that question. You come up with different answers each time or variance on.

547
01:03:17.290 --> 01:03:18.660
Ingram Wright: I quite enjoyed that.

548
01:03:18.850 --> 01:03:28.070
Ingram Wright: I I've quite enjoyed crawling onto the table to get an assessment of some kind on, and it's a great thing about working with children that you're faced with those kinds of challenges.

549
01:03:28.270 --> 01:03:35.250
Ingram Wright: But I also think Elliot's questions. Exemplify something that's great about working with children is they'll ask you the toughest questions right?

550
01:03:35.530 --> 01:03:38.300
Ingram Wright: They won't. you know.

551
01:03:38.620 --> 01:03:52.590
Ingram Wright: Sit back and and and shyly, You know, kind of avoid exposing you and your limitations. They'll ask you some really really tough things, and I I quite enjoy being put on the spot on occasion in in my work. I'm sure we all do.

552
01:03:53.010 --> 01:03:57.230
vickihome: Yeah. And I think you know with those questions you can see, and it's cogs

553
01:03:57.290 --> 01:04:08.690
vickihome: of his brain working. You can see what he trying to get a better understanding, and and I love that I love love being able to kind of feed information into that brain

554
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:12.520
Ingram Wright: keeps our cogs wearing as well, answering the questions

555
01:04:12.540 --> 01:04:16.280
Cliodhna Carroll: I've certainly learned a lot from your answers, Vicky.

556
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:20.490
Ingram Wright: I've got a final question

557
01:04:20.640 --> 01:04:32.650
Ingram Wright: for you, Vicki, and I, I suppose we talked a little bit about how you got into newer psychology, and how the field is is shaped over time, and maybe changed and developed, and become more specialized and

558
01:04:33.970 --> 01:04:47.400
Ingram Wright: much more extensive. I suppose, in terms of the the volume of of of work that is published in in the name of your psychology. But as someone who's been a a leader in the field for such a time.

559
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:55.990
Ingram Wright: Where do you think we're heading? Where do you think we need? Where do you think we need to go? I mean, You've talked about some of the challenges technology apps

560
01:04:56.240 --> 01:04:57.830
Ingram Wright: online therapy.

561
01:04:58.180 --> 01:05:06.950
Ingram Wright: I suppose that the place that we're living in now. But where do you think we're going to be heading in the next 10 to 15 years in terms of your psychology.

562
01:05:09.090 --> 01:05:17.180
vickihome: It's really hard to tell, because if you had asked me this where we where we would be now when I started

563
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:28.780
vickihome: my training, I mean, we didn't even have computers that then. So it that the the amount of change is enormous, and and you mentioned check before

564
01:05:28.890 --> 01:05:31.390
vickihome: those kinds of AI

565
01:05:31.720 --> 01:05:35.440
vickihome: developments offer such huge input.

566
01:05:36.670 --> 01:05:38.080
vickihome: I I think that

567
01:05:38.240 --> 01:05:46.680
vickihome: I think that we're likely to just have ever in expanding use of of technology, digital technology online technology.

568
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:54.920
vickihome: I think that well, I hope that we take advantage of that to be able to disseminate

569
01:05:54.940 --> 01:06:08.030
vickihome: our knowledge as best as we can, not not just to our psychology, colleagues, but to to our patients and clients and families, so that it's really easily accessible. I think that's that's really important.

570
01:06:09.640 --> 01:06:10.990
vickihome: you know. I I think we

571
01:06:12.920 --> 01:06:16.720
vickihome: as the health system kind of gets more

572
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:31.890
vickihome: precision based. I think this a an argument for us to get less precision based. because you know what we get so focused in on these medical things

573
01:06:32.020 --> 01:06:33.700
vickihome: and and the

574
01:06:34.180 --> 01:06:43.030
vickihome: the minutia of of really particular diagnosis, that I think it's really important for us as psychologists in general to keep up the picture

575
01:06:43.200 --> 01:06:54.210
vickihome: and to be able to maintain that approach, to be able to look at whoever we've got on in front of us, or on the screen, or whatever.

576
01:06:54.370 --> 01:07:01.570
vickihome: and really be able to maintain that kind of human element to what we do. I don't quite know what kind of

577
01:07:01.880 --> 01:07:08.450
vickihome: platform will be doing it on in 20 years time, but but I think you know it came back to Freud.

578
01:07:08.530 --> 01:07:22.240
vickihome: I'm. Not necessarily psycho in the analytic in my background, but what he was doing and what we're doing now, you know, has very a lot of similarities in that sitting in a room formulating, making interpretations.

579
01:07:22.240 --> 01:07:31.870
vickihome: you know, and that's that's a century on, despite all of the the progress that's been made. So I hope we really do take that kind of human touch to what we're doing.

580
01:07:32.950 --> 01:07:46.020
Ingram Wright: Vicki: Thank you ever so much for sharing your wisdom, perspective, and experience with, as it's been an absolute pleasure. I mean, if i'd if i'd known when I was turning over the front cover of that one and only book that I

581
01:07:46.170 --> 01:07:57.850
Ingram Wright: knew about at the time that inspired me to pursue a career in Peddat. And you're like, if I knew that i'd be talking to you in this forum, you know, if I could have predicted that future I would have been absolutely delighted. So thank you for your time.

582
01:07:58.370 --> 01:08:01.470
vickihome: and great to

583
01:08:01.780 --> 01:08:03.430
vickihome: to talk with you both.

584
01:08:03.780 --> 01:08:05.360
Cliodhna Carroll: Thank you.