A conversation with Katherine Carpenter

Katherine Carpenter, Chair of the British Psychological Society's Division of Neuropsychology talks to Ingram Wright about her background, her interest in neuropsychology, leadership of the profession and challenges for our profession around diversity and inclusion. Katherine is speaking in a personal capacity.

Transcript

Ingram Wright: So welcome Catherine carpenter that sounds very formal doesn't it catch we know each other well and you've kindly agreed to have a bit of a conversation about.

Ingram Wright: neuropsychology clinical neuropsychology the division of neuropsychology and and various questions that we've discussed that might be interesting to us and to a wider audience.
Katherine Carpenter: to other people yeah.

Ingram Wright: We hope and but one of the things that we've started within these podcasts is asking people to maybe say a little bit about themselves who you are.
Katherine Carpenter: Okay yeah.

Ingram Wright: Well okay to do that.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah yeah sure so i'm a consultant clinical neuropsychologist I did a degree at Oxford in experimental psychology and went on, and did a doctorate in clinical psychology at what's now the UCLA program did a dissertation with Chris freeth on motor skills.
Katherine Carpenter: was always interested.
Katherine Carpenter: In neuropsychology.
Katherine Carpenter: I have a rather florid.
Katherine Carpenter: Mental health background my loss of bipolar in the family so grandmother uncle cousin sister brother nephew or with very bad and father very bad bipolar.
Katherine Carpenter: And my mother committed suicide so i'm not saying I got into psychology to you know sought out mental illness but.
Katherine Carpenter: I was always preoccupied with what caused it, why did present in some people not elders etc and move quite rapidly from mental illness to to the brain, because after I never really understood that distinction between organic and functional because, after all, consciousness.
Katherine Carpenter: Whatever the mind is in the brain was took a job in Oxford, because my partner was there and was invited to apply for a job in in neurosciences and basically stayed there for 30 years.
Katherine Carpenter: and especially its interests were What were they epilepsy surgery subarachnoid hemorrhage and then Lisa in your oncology deep brain stimulation.
Katherine Carpenter: Always did different things fabulous career, I mean why I absolutely love about neuropsychology is, to my mind and art, as well as a science yeah.
Katherine Carpenter: that's what I really like about it training them was well it wasn't a training you basically did the core elements of what's our training now, but as an apprenticeship.
Katherine Carpenter: So I did my dissertation like I said and I did some peer reviewed journal articles hours very closely supervised for four years I was probably more than that supervised by people like fried and newcomb.
Ingram Wright: And yet.
Katherine Carpenter: It is not specially trained with Oliver Lang will actually and Brenda milner.
Katherine Carpenter: And he wrote up some single case studies and things and then later on in my career, I got interested in clinical management, because I recognize that neuroscience very small specialism.
Katherine Carpenter: But if you look after the bigger players, they remember you and i'm.
Katherine Carpenter: Pretty proud of the fact that when I started at the relative infirmary I think we were something like three people to whole time equivalents.
Katherine Carpenter: And when I left, we were something like 12 whole time in your cyclocross speeds you're a rehab adult and then I was also part of it was also running the psychological medicine so that's kind of it's about a.

Ingram Wright: lot in that Catherine, and I i've kind of heard you talk a little bit in the past about the kind of sort of.

Ingram Wright: Personal sort of background family background and news mental health issues, I mean they're not easy things to talk about are they and I guess.

Ingram Wright: And i'm struck by how open, you are and how open you're prepared to be with your audiences when you talk to us about neuropsychology and.

Ingram Wright: You know, often there's a personal story isn't a city not far beneath the surface about some of the things that we do I mean is that something that you.
Katherine Carpenter: Well, I think i'm sorry go.

Ingram Wright: hello, my question was is that something you think about how that.

Ingram Wright: influences or how it might support people to understand the relationship between some of the things that drive us personally or some of the things that challenges, personally, and what we do professionally.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah well, what do I think I think it is important and it certainly shaped me in my career i'm sometimes a bit jumpy about mentioning it, because I don't want people to think.
Katherine Carpenter: Oh, you kind of went into psychology to you know sort your dad hours or something like that which wasn't is at all, I think I.
Katherine Carpenter: don't know a lot of emphasis placed on self reflection isn't Aaron Declan so programs at the moment and I think it's become a bit cosmetic.
Katherine Carpenter: But Actually, I think it does the hope is to to look to ourselves and our own experience, and what we've been through and yeah and I think it's definitely shaped me and.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah I I think i've one of the things that I value enormously in my work is integrity, I think it's really important to be real and I can't remember, I think I chose board on about this, and another webinar that my clinical supervisor once.
Katherine Carpenter: said to me well, a couple of things that.
Katherine Carpenter: somebody wants said something to her about your career is something horrible like chronic sexual abuse in childhood and.
Katherine Carpenter: My clinical supervisor got tearful and the patient gnosis and she didn't have the balls to say or actually you know your story is really touched me, she said I got something in my eye my contact lenses.
Katherine Carpenter: and afterwards really regretted it and I I don't know why that that resonates for me that says something about obviously you don't disclose a patient patience, you know everything that's going on, but there are points where it where it is important to be real anyway.

Ingram Wright: So there's something there about honesty and integrity and the interfaces that we occupy, and I suppose being true to ourselves isn't there and and frank in our communication, to the extent that people can see who we are.

Ingram Wright: As well as what we do and I think I think, often in neuropsychology and we're going to talk about the division of neuro psychology in a bit, but.

Ingram Wright: I think the other thing that's perhaps a bit of it's a cliche about neuropsychologists is that we go into neuropsychology to kind of avoid things that our colleagues in in clinical psychology might embrace embrace much more and.
Katherine Carpenter: it's quite the reverse we're not just test bashes as well.
Katherine Carpenter: And I think that's.
Katherine Carpenter: One of the things why I actually love the work because it's it's everything it's all your foundation clinical skills, then you decide whether or not to test to you know test out your hypotheses or not.
Katherine Carpenter: Yes, you're putting you don't see a high you know hippocampus that walks through the door or.
Katherine Carpenter: Yes, domain Alzheimer type you see a real.
Katherine Carpenter: Yes, yes, having an affair, and he might be got grandchildren and God knows what and.
Katherine Carpenter: I think, putting all that together is is really, you know as a real skill, but it's yes that's what makes it so exciting.

Ingram Wright: So it's been interesting for me is this sort of despite that, so rather cliched.

Ingram Wright: A narrow and clearly invalid view of new psychology that everybody's come on the podcast so far is kind of talks about things other than the tests, really.

Ingram Wright: about things that get them excited about neuropsychology and not necessarily their sort of brain behavior relationships that, of course, are important.

Ingram Wright: But they don't form the the bulk of what's firing them up right now about their work and about their engagement with your psychology is in terms of clinical practice.

Ingram Wright: And I wanted to ask you about a little bit about.

Ingram Wright: Because you're retired your your chair of the division of neuropsychology and you gave a great talk a few years ago, I think, with one of our Bristol.

Ingram Wright: seminars about leadership and you talked a little bit about management and leadership of neuropsychology services and.

Ingram Wright: And I lead a neuropsychology service pediatric neuropsychology service and it's quite a challenging environment at the moment, so they're not necessarily thinking about Kobe but I wondered what you'd.

Ingram Wright: kind of seeing change in terms of the way services delivered in terms of the way that we practices neuropsychologists over there over the years that you are working.
Katherine Carpenter: correctly well that's a lot of years so workload massively increased pressure from from on high from an anxious England from you know.
Katherine Carpenter: On top from trusts when when you're working with an a trust I think has increased massively I mean how goodness knows how many years i've been doing, you know do more for less.

Ingram Wright: Efficiency yes.
Katherine Carpenter: You know that's the on and on and on.
Katherine Carpenter: what's changed yeah I think workload, I mean crikey I think when I started my supervisor or project name any name sort of came in at 10 o'clock having sort of talked to the cleaner and probably saw two patients or something in the day, you know.
Katherine Carpenter: Yes, that's changed massively how we run services.
Katherine Carpenter: I think a lot of our the autonomy has gone, which I think is a shame, I think i'm gosh i'm going back a long way now, but I think agenda for change was a real problem.
Katherine Carpenter: Because it puts us on a par with people that we, I mean I, personally, I think we should have been on the spine with doctors and dentists, because we have the same level of training or some surgeons and I think because we're not it makes us look blooming expensive and that's that's difficult.
Katherine Carpenter: And I think we just had to get much more canny about making cases and and ducking and weaving and.

Ingram Wright: demonstrating value.

Ingram Wright: in some way, having to account for ourselves, and where and how we add value.
Katherine Carpenter: which I mean which which one can do, but it's quite it can be quite time consuming and it's and I think I remember, I said this in the tool you're referring to, but I think also.
Katherine Carpenter: Why clinical management's exciting and interesting and important is busy don't look after your service your you know your patients will suffer, you will go under.
Katherine Carpenter: And then actually clinical management is is relational and the loss of our clinical psychological skills are absolutely spot on.
Katherine Carpenter: Doing that well I think embrace it would be my view it's good fun, I really enjoy working with physicians with that it's insertions as well on some right.
Katherine Carpenter: there's some not so good managers, but this is bright managers as well, but understanding the system, and you know the currency in the time is important.

Ingram Wright: And it was you know, I guess, people are feeling quite again maybe we'll get on to talking about code more explicitly but people are feeling.

Ingram Wright: Quite tired right now and I guess, one of the things that we may be a feeling a bit tired about is.

Ingram Wright: The sort of relentless change within the NHS that you know, as you say, following agenda for change various other sort of drives towards efficiency and productivity in terms of the way that we deliver services.

Ingram Wright: I mean clinical leadership can be quite tire summit, you know constantly having to.

Ingram Wright: justify your value and.

Ingram Wright: And, and perhaps your psychology the value of your psychology not always speaking for itself and having to be demonstrated much more explicitly than perhaps as the case in the past yeah.
Katherine Carpenter: i'd like you said we're going to come on to the dawn I think one of the things that division of neuro psych who's done it I think it's commissioning document we produced in 15 was really helpful that a lot of feedback on that.
Katherine Carpenter: But yes, people are tired and, in fact, one of the ways in which I was thinking, things have changed for me with covert I mean for me in relation to the division is that.
Katherine Carpenter: I become a source of all seem to become a kind of point of contact for people saying how are other services dealing with this.
Katherine Carpenter: Goodness i'm struggling we're being required to work in icu, what do you think about that what are other places doing.
Katherine Carpenter: You know i'm being bullied at work, you know i've done quite a lot of soft touch stuff actually in the way for the over the last year I wasn't expecting to do the division which I think it's important.

Ingram Wright: So tell us more about the division of neuropsychology I mean you and I.

Ingram Wright: are both around the same table, so it's a sort of slightly contrived question for the for the benefit the audience but i'm always interested to kind of hear you reflect on stuff that I kind of think I know what you think but i'm not.
Katherine Carpenter: Well, you must get asked like I do many.
Katherine Carpenter: I haven't seen much attended events recently, of course, but younger people, particularly more newly qualified people do certainly say to me why should I joined the division.

Ingram Wright: What would I say tell us tell us tell us what it is, first of all, what is the division of psychology is the network in the.
Katherine Carpenter: richest psychological society parts that is the part of the society that is dedicated to people working in neuropsychology in a wide spectrum of settings.
Katherine Carpenter: And it's dedicated to promoting the interests of people with neurological conditions and neuropsychologist working in those areas so it's concerned with training with policy development with events, a broad spectrum of things, but that sounds a bit boring to be completely honest.

Ingram Wright: Well, I suppose, one of the one of the sort of perhaps less boring ways of thinking about it and I heard this sort of framed in a.

Ingram Wright: meeting I was out recently use it isn't intended to represent numerous psychologists or represent neuropsychology because I think that's kind of fundamentally quite important isn't it.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah well.
Katherine Carpenter: Strictly speaking, I think we're supposed to represent neuropsychology because the psychological society is a chartered raw society and it's it's on D is promotion of psycho psychology, but I think if you look after psychologists you ain't gonna have any neuropsychology and so.
Katherine Carpenter: I also believe that it's important to look after.
Katherine Carpenter: People and I use that, in the broadest sense, I think one of the ways in which the business changed live tried to shape it over the last few years is to be less precious about who's in and who's out because I think that's just bonkers.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah, of course, we got to look after our call specialism and our quality assurance of the register and so forth, but.
Katherine Carpenter: There are a number of people who ain't never going to get round to doing the formal training and you're probably doing.
Katherine Carpenter: entirely competent you know, cognitive assessment, if not neuropsychological assessment, but they may be clinical psychologists were hindering psychology and I think they've done is also the place for them, I don't think it's you know it's a gentleman's club, if I can.
Katherine Carpenter: Yes.
Katherine Carpenter: I think that's that's important I can't remember what your question was, but what what it made me think is that one of the things I really think is valuable about the division of your psychology is, to my mind, the only.
Katherine Carpenter: The only real professional grouping for neuropsychologists, certainly in the UK.
Katherine Carpenter: And you know, yes, there is the international your psychological society, but I think how neuro psych is practice to broaden the States and things is so different it's very hard to make it relevant.
Katherine Carpenter: there's the British near a psychological side, he puts on five events, a couple of times a year in fact we've got to join symposium with them coming up, but.
Katherine Carpenter: they're not really focused on what it's like to work as a neuropsychologist and so a lot of the stuff that we've been doing over the last few years, I think it's really important like speaking it all party parliamentary groups yeah shaping legislation or mental capacity.
Katherine Carpenter: Hugh Williams work in terms of prisons guessing.
Katherine Carpenter: You know review of whether people have had traumatic brain injuries into the secure state really you know changing things on the shop floor, I think.
Katherine Carpenter: I think those things are really important, and one of things that makes me sad is that it's.
Katherine Carpenter: quite hard to get that out to Members and because only a few of our Members come to conferences and things and.
Katherine Carpenter: People are so busy and tired, they often don't get around to reading the messages I pushed out, but I think a lot of the work that goes on behind the scenes, is really.
Katherine Carpenter: You know the work we do, let me think with the national neurosciences advisory group with the clinical reference group trying to get an extra similar to be aware of our needs and things.
Katherine Carpenter: And it's an uphill struggle, let me tell you, because you know we haven't got a protected title, which makes it, you know hard work.

Ingram Wright: Kevin is a little bit of movement on your chair, which is just.

Ingram Wright: Noise in the button is fine and I don't have to sit anxiously still and I will obviously edit this out, but i'm going to follow up on what you were saying.

Ingram Wright: Okay now about him, so I just wanted to let you know.

Ingram Wright: Otherwise, it will.

Ingram Wright: When people are listening in their car they might be wondering whether you.

Ingram Wright: Know we're lighting a fire in the background or whatever and.

Ingram Wright: So you talked about the work that the division of euro psychologies done.

Ingram Wright: On to your stewardship if I can put it like that, but obviously rather organizations to, as you say, and and you sort of mentioned a few of them earlier on there's also the.

Ingram Wright: ACP or the Association of clinical psychology So if you know that I suppose, for those of us who were clinical psychologists and.

Ingram Wright: Clinical neuropsychologist this this choice isn't there and i'm just wondering about I mean I asked you just before we started about.

Ingram Wright: How much it costs to join the division of neuropsychology and I guess one way of kind of framing the question is, you know what Why should people dip in their pocket and enjoying the bps or join the division of human psychology what what what do they get for it.
Katherine Carpenter: Well, I think they get I mean I didn't want to I don't know that much about the ACP I don't want to knock them because they are recently formed and they formed for very good reasons but, to my knowledge they don't have.
Katherine Carpenter: Such a strong grouping of neuro psychologists and i'm actually quite worried about the fragmentation of the profession.
Katherine Carpenter: Yes, following on from what I was saying about trying to represent the profession to parliamentarians Commissioners, etc, you don't want things to get too complicated.
Katherine Carpenter: And it is in fact the society that accredits courses all the developments you and i've been working on terms of trying to increase training, make it less protracted.
Katherine Carpenter: make it less expensive where we can make it more pragmatic and viable for people to do, because the end point has got to be more competent neuropsychologists.
Katherine Carpenter: I if i'm honest, I would say it is a bit of a ground ground to me that.
Katherine Carpenter: The society to join the society cost quite a lot of money back to join the division of neuropsychologist pretty much nothing it and it's I think we're the lowest but one network to join.
Katherine Carpenter: And what I would say is that the society is actually reviewing all that is reviewing it's costings and and is beginning to smell the coffee about drawing itself interest 21st century and i'm.
Katherine Carpenter: Quite excited about that, I think, either it's going to get its act together in the next three five years, or maybe it won't exist, but for the moment, I mean and.

Ingram Wright: me too, and I.

Ingram Wright: wouldn't you mentioned the protected title um it's another thing that I guess you know we've talked about a lot but.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah you.

Ingram Wright: may mean rather less to people listening in terms of what kind of currency, a protected title has, I mean my understanding of it is, is that is that you know and not everybody can call themselves a.

Ingram Wright: practitioner psychologist or a clinical psychologist or an educational psychologist those are protected titles and in order to use those titles, one has to be registered with a CPC.
Katherine Carpenter: The health care professions counseling.

Ingram Wright: Yes, but it isn't the case that to call yourself a clinical neuropsychologist you have to be registered with any body whatsoever is that.

Correct.

Ingram Wright: And is that what you mean about the challenge of having a protected title it's about legislation that would prevent those who are not.

Ingram Wright: Pregnant qualify for themselves clinical neuropsychologist.
Katherine Carpenter: Yes, well i've been.
Katherine Carpenter: Clear that you know one wants to be inclusive i'm afraid that I am aware of a number of disasters examples of poor practice.
Katherine Carpenter: in which the public has not been protected so.
Katherine Carpenter: Slightly game back into the midst of time, but when professional regulation passed from the brushes I wrote a little society to the CPC it was assumed that.
Katherine Carpenter: neuropsychology was a bit of continuing professional development, all the top have been clinical education and in that way, all patients patients in the public will be protected and I don't think that's the case because.
Katherine Carpenter: I think, as you well know your psychology advanced so much, I mean what's the half life of neuroscience it's unlike four years or something it's Not a bit of CBD on the top of what everyone did 20 years ago.
Katherine Carpenter: And so you really need to know what you're about when you're advising surgeons are.
Katherine Carpenter: Doing, and so it is a risk that anyone can call themselves a neuropsychologist having said that is a bit of a.
Katherine Carpenter: cat and mouse game because other networks also struggle, if people want to get around the system they're going to call themselves a business psychologist or a goodness knows what.
Katherine Carpenter: I think is important, with.
Katherine Carpenter: That again and that's one of the things that the division offers, we will you developed, we have this set of core competencies.
Katherine Carpenter: We have standards we have a register, we have cpd we know what you know we can point to me very clearly defined train routes, you know we have lots of lots of things that are also practice.

Ingram Wright: And it's and it's hard sometimes isn't it holding that line around actually there's a threshold for competence, there is a there is a line that it's really important in terms of protection of the public.

Ingram Wright: And those who are in receipt of our services and that we can offer something around assurance that if you see a clinical neuropsychologist that there is some competencies that underpin their their practice.

Ingram Wright: But I also think that sometimes we need to be careful about you know where we articulate that threshold, because we can disenfranchised people from our profession, who actually we don't want to disenfranchise and actually a perfectly competent in their in their domain of practice.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah well that was what I was saying about you don't have to just be on the register to be a member of the dawn are interested.

Ingram Wright: In yes, yes.

Ingram Wright: So.

Ingram Wright: In terms of the division of human psychology you're the Chair, you must have some ideas about where it's going what the challenges are ahead, I mean we've had.

Ingram Wright: You know the most unusual 12 months in in in my life and i'm not sure if it's the most unusual 12 months in in yours, Catherine but, but I think for many of us, you know this has been a particularly challenging time hasn't it and I think it's sort of hard for us to look for words but.

Ingram Wright: If we were for a few minutes to look forward, what do you think that division of euro psychologies is going to be about over the next two or three years.
Katherine Carpenter: We think it's going to build on what we've been doing already and I think that's.
Katherine Carpenter: Now it's just the right time, because with the changes that are going on in the society which used to be very risk averse there is more going to be more capacity I think there's been much more investment in policy.
Katherine Carpenter: Development and policy interests, and I think you may remember, we will quite often told you know you can't do that we just say that because it's ultraviolet rays Latin expression meaning it's outside the remiss of a.
Katherine Carpenter: charity.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah whereas I think.
Katherine Carpenter: Over the next few years, what i'd like to do is to build on actually a lot of the stuff that's come out of this Cobra year of service leads.
Katherine Carpenter: feeling that were the go to place where they can get mutual support and understanding, and you know we've instituted the networking event which is every other year from the annual conference so it's less emphasis on academic.
Katherine Carpenter: and
Katherine Carpenter: Practice, you know service evaluation presentations and so forth, much more about linking up I think that's going to be helpful, I think we're beginning to.
Katherine Carpenter: Think about diversity and inclusion in the profession which we've been pretty rubbish about until now, and you and i've had conversations about it's difficult as two privileged white people to be talking about this, but we've got our Conference coming up and i'm.
Katherine Carpenter: very interested in how we increase access to neuropsychology for people from minority backgrounds, which I were looking into Edison research being presented in October i'm sure is is low, we want to increase access and diversity across the profession as well.
Katherine Carpenter: I mean things like the reciprocal mentoring program that I started, and I suppose it from a selfish point of view i've learned an enormous amount from doing it, but i'd really like to see that extended, I think we could be supporting.
Katherine Carpenter: younger members of our professional much more than we do now, so I think.
Katherine Carpenter: that's a bit of a weird way of answering your question, but I think, building on the strengths, that are coming together to date and and being the go to place professionally for for the profession.

Ingram Wright: Of in terms of some of those things we sort of.

Ingram Wright: worked on together from slightly different angles, I mean i've been concerned about diversity, inclusion and training, and some of the artificial barriers around training, and I suppose, when you talked about.

Ingram Wright: You know the thresholds around competence and thinking about protecting the public, and we also need a workforce that is.

Ingram Wright: accessible to people who are interested in it and who might struggle with the time and investment that's required with the connections that are required to to break into neuropsychology I suppose and.

Ingram Wright: We spent a bit of time earlier on, with them guests on this podcast talking about training and barriers and things that put people off being interested in your psychology.

Ingram Wright: I mean, it does seem to me in terms of diversity and inclusion that we've been a bit late to that particular agenda haven't we, and I think that was it.

Ingram Wright: was a point at which I think we could have continued to be rather complacent as division and maybe hide behind the fact that much of our training, for example, is post qualification training and actually some of these arguments are are.

Ingram Wright: In some ways, better held elsewhere aren't they in terms of within clinical psychology in earliest stages of our training routes, but you've been quite a.

Ingram Wright: Quite a lot of leadership and in some is taking us into that forum and i'm wondering if you want to say something about you what's driven that Catherine.
Katherine Carpenter: Well, well before I do that, I just wanted to respond and say just because.
Katherine Carpenter: You get into Nero through other routes and it's kind of, as it were, the.
Katherine Carpenter: increase diversity and diversity is further up the food, you know.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah in the chain doesn't mean to say it's not our business and that's one of the things i'm i'm you know keen to think about it, there was some talk in the last Task Force webinar last week about.
Katherine Carpenter: You know, perhaps course core selection placing less emphasis on people having had particular types of work experience which, as we know, is you know.
Katherine Carpenter: differentially open to privileged middle class young people yeah and I think i've been thinking about how and whether to be able to offer to look.
Katherine Carpenter: deep inside applications as they used to do for my assistance and things, for you know people from minority backgrounds and help them, so I don't think just because it's it's not neuro business just because it's further down.

Ingram Wright: The training line yeah yes.
Katherine Carpenter: Why what where's it come from, to do more, well, I mean we were already you know we were already thinking about this a few years ago and.
Katherine Carpenter: Probably not doing very much because, as I said elsewhere is blooming hard to know what to do and what actions to take, I think you know George floyd's murder last 25th of May and.
Katherine Carpenter: Then public health england's day so June, the second on differential effects on people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds was pretty much a wake up call with them there.
Katherine Carpenter: When we're beginning to.
Katherine Carpenter: To do more, I mean there's still loads to do, but even even in as much what we were saying earlier when we even in as much as it's kind of embarrassing as a white person to be talking about you think oh.
Katherine Carpenter: You know, perhaps I shouldn't be doing that you're kind of damned if you do damned if you don't because if if I don't do it and feel uncomfortable doing it it's not going to happen is it you.

Ingram Wright: know, and I think I think I suppose, in terms of the conversations we've had.

Ingram Wright: I think we could be forgiven for occasionally making clumsy mistakes.

Ingram Wright: But doing nothing isn't an option, and I think you've been clear about that that you know rather be criticized for doing something that maybe was a little bit.

Ingram Wright: ill advised or or perhaps didn't send quite the right message or didn't have quite the right tone and better to do that than to sit back and do nothing for fear of being criticized and.

Ingram Wright: I think we've we've we've been reading reasonably.

Ingram Wright: well received, I think, within this wider pretty psychological site in terms of some of that work that's happened and come from the division of neuro psychology.

Ingram Wright: And I think what we've discovered is actually amongst our rank so people who are very supportive it's critical but supportive and have a lot.

Ingram Wright: To say about these kinds of issues and i've been surprised at just how much strength and resilience in that sort of theme really within division of your psychology.
Katherine Carpenter: I think my worry is being seen as being tokenistic and like you know you've done that you've taken the box because it's it's a big old you know so it's a hard juggernaut to turn around and it's it's societal isn't it it's not you know.
Katherine Carpenter: Institutional it's everywhere and and.
Katherine Carpenter: i'm like I.
Katherine Carpenter: said, also about that i'm one of the things that's taken me about recent In fact I was just trying to write a few lines for our.
Katherine Carpenter: email message, but trying to again get the tone right because it's so difficult, but in the recent webinars listening to I was again, you know really taken aback to hear people say.
Katherine Carpenter: they've come up against this idea that psychology things black people are less intelligent and I, you know I, I feel that we, I have a lot to do to change that perception.
Katherine Carpenter: You know, because we don't know it's like I know I know there's a lot of history that I need to be kind of.
Katherine Carpenter: What I say their responsibility for, if you like, even though it wasn't me, but I think we need to correct that misapprehension because it's very worrying to me.

Ingram Wright: psychology or psychologists Catherine is that music kind of an important thing to.
Katherine Carpenter: Well, I suppose.
Katherine Carpenter: I suppose psychologists by definition of you know it's like.

Ingram Wright: Coming from psychology to in terms of the history of our discipline of our orientation and excellent.
Katherine Carpenter: yeah you know IQ testing of black people and group differences being attributed to genetic differences and.
Katherine Carpenter: Not not being a tenable.
Katherine Carpenter: Racism is not a.
Katherine Carpenter: logical construct in a curve is shocking to think that these conversations with you know.

Ingram Wright: i'm going to use saying that you think those ideas are still sort of influential to an extent that they still influence how we think.
Katherine Carpenter: No, I don't I did my hopefully no card carrying neuropsychologist things that but I think.
Katherine Carpenter: Other psychologists, academics and clinicians.
Katherine Carpenter: What do I think I think they've certainly experienced that in the last 20 years or whatever and they're uneasy about whether that belief has changed, I think, is what i'm saying.

Ingram Wright: Yes, and I think there's something about being able to have a conversation about where ideas come from and how they're translated into practice.

Ingram Wright: That is influenced by biases that creeping in the literature that we've read in the constructs that we've internalized you know, through our experience outside of professional life, but also within professional life, and I think what I hear you saying is it's important that we kind of.

Ingram Wright: Think about that body of knowledge, that is the basis for clinical neuropsychology and practice, and whether we maybe need to address some of the errors misapprehensions.
Katherine Carpenter: more explicitly just because we don't think that's the case we assume everyone else thinks that's not the case.

Ingram Wright: Yes, yes, and I colleagues from from outside and certainly you know the branches of psychology have you know, have highlighted some of these things haven't a about.

Ingram Wright: neuropsychology and the agenda that your psychology I suppose has grown up with the history of neuropsychology, and these are things that we must.

Ingram Wright: At least be able to talk about and think about and and challenge.

Ingram Wright: Covering in terms of other you know sort of themes of inclusion and perhaps an easier and more comfortable for us to talk about the things that we've done together around training and.

Ingram Wright: sort of increasing the ways in which so there's my there's my printer wearing away in the in the background right on cue i'm going to have to ask that question again somebody printing something out sorry.

Ingram Wright: Can you hear that.

Ingram Wright: Very not so much sorry it sounds really loud for me.

Ingram Wright: i'll ask the question again Okay, I could just set it out and.

Ingram Wright: So I was thinking about some of the work that we've been doing with colleagues from counseling psychology and you've been very helpful and supportive of some of the work that i've certainly been involved in and know very well.

Ingram Wright: And it certainly seemed to me that as clinical neuropsychologists were quite conservative aren't we in terms of you know, the membership rules for our club and.

Ingram Wright: Who can get in and on what basis, and I think i'm wondering how you saw that kind of developing theme of work around the diversity of routes into clinical neuropsychology training and.

Ingram Wright: Where you think we might still have room for development there.
Katherine Carpenter: um well I think it's a it's a tension or tightrope as we were talking earlier between.
Katherine Carpenter: Ensuring that.
Katherine Carpenter: You know you uphold the what would I say the the core expertise that is neuropsychology it isn't, just as I said a little sort of cpd on top of what people did in physical or educational years ago it's something it's very special skills, but I think.
Katherine Carpenter: I should, I think we put node expresses it very well by.
Katherine Carpenter: Using the analogy of a driving test is in a way, what we're training people to do is to be a safe pair of hands that you, you know you could trust to go down on the Ward to a completely new patient and know what you don't know if you see what I mean.
Katherine Carpenter: To say that you're not going to learn a whole lot more in the next 2030 years of your career, so I think, as you say, the profession has been.
Katherine Carpenter: Perhaps guilty of being overly when I see it just kind of you know.
Katherine Carpenter: fashion, not fashions but the way in which views swing mom and the other I might sense that I wasn't involved with the initial qualification and click on your psychology was.
Katherine Carpenter: As the profession developed, there was a sense that we needed to nail and articulate what is particular about what we do and how.
Katherine Carpenter: Actually, not everybody can do with without some your anatomy and you know various other skills.
Katherine Carpenter: But then when we did that we set up some bar that was too high, which was a bit bonkers and then just kind of own those despite our face, because then, a lot of people found it too expensive and whatever but.
Katherine Carpenter: Of course, I have no intention of making it so.
Katherine Carpenter: easy to come in, then the end point isn't what we want, we need you know so that's that's what the tension isn't it we want to open it up to people you've got an interest you prepared to top up their skills kind of like I was talking about with my apprenticeship all those years ago.

Ingram Wright: yeah.
Katherine Carpenter: it's not unreasonable to do that to do that, you know you can do a self self taught self learning route, but for the qualification can't you, so I think flexibility is the key, but well administered and well, monitor, if you like.

Ingram Wright: And I think one of the things i've discovered about you know, having conversations with colleagues from counseling psychology is that.

Ingram Wright: Those conversations in in themselves have enhance our views of what clinical neuropsychology could be adopted more inclusive attitudes to the roots in which you can.

Ingram Wright: You know galvanize your interest into something that actually has allows you to practice allows you to deliver services that actually were crying out for in terms of what's needed in the NHS and outside.

Ingram Wright: And there was very little to be threatened by.

Ingram Wright: In terms of embracing colleagues and it's a principled way and saying, actually, we need to make sure that we're safe and, as you say fundamentals are in place.

Ingram Wright: But, provided we can demonstrate that it doesn't matter you know what how you've chosen to build your career and in what order you've chosen to do that as long as you can demonstrate you've reached a safe and effective endpoint.

Ingram Wright: I suppose like you say the driving test doesn't really matter what you do your.

Ingram Wright: theory or your practice, first as long as you're safe on the road, and you can parallel park or whatever they do these days, you know that's the thing that's important to us isn't it that we've.

Ingram Wright: got an effective practitioners.
Katherine Carpenter: Well, one of the arguments is often leveled against us when we say you know you need psychology here or whatever is well great but there aren't enough neuropsychologist, and that is true.
Katherine Carpenter: We need to grow as a profession.
Katherine Carpenter: And so we can't afford to be too precious about I mean, obviously, as you say, we need to be careful, but we can't we can't be too precious about the whole thing, because otherwise you know will be moribund as a profession.

Ingram Wright: Catherine, can I ask you about code it's kind of it's it, I mean it's it's been a.

Ingram Wright: really difficult years, as I said earlier on, and i'm just wondering during covert I mean, do you think from a subdivision of numerous psychology point of view that we had a particular role to play in terms of our professional response to covert.
Katherine Carpenter: Well, I always beat myself up and feel we could have done more, and I think the work what the work that you and I did on remote in your psychological assessment at the beginning that we close out quite quickly and then.
Katherine Carpenter: You lead on on remote assessment, more broadly, was, I think, pretty well received and pretty timely I think that's as I was alluding to earlier that the work i've done in responding to loss of individual contacts certainly been appreciated.
Katherine Carpenter: I think I think it's been a very, very tough time for people i'm.
Katherine Carpenter: I am not sure what else we could have done really.
Katherine Carpenter: A lot of the the the actual work of the division is tipped along quite well i've been quite pleased, given how pressures people have been you know working in icu and full P, p.
Katherine Carpenter: You know homeschooling as well, so I think it's pretty impressive, but you know, one can always look back with hindsight and say, well, we could have done more.

Ingram Wright: Do you think I mean Do you see any sort of imminent challenges in terms of this kind of period of pausing reflecting and recovering our services, do you think there are particular things that we need to attend to that are influenced by code or.

Ingram Wright: Do you think, as you said earlier, we can just kind of get back to those themes that.
Katherine Carpenter: that existed beforehand, I don't know I need more conversation with colleagues about that, I think, but things that percolate to the top for me are.
Katherine Carpenter: Some good things that actually will they were bored to death, with zoom has shown that in a green and cheaper way, we can connect much more rapidly and it takes less time than jumping on trains all the zone.
Katherine Carpenter: We put out we've actually achieved stuff in a timely fashion, because we just had to do it, and that I think that was very good, but, conversely, I think some corners have been cut.
Katherine Carpenter: I think I mean slightly worried on the recent research France that certain due diligence that would normally have been done as kind of slipped, so I think there's a there's a balance, but I think.
Katherine Carpenter: It allows us to look in a fresh way at how we work there's some good things from that and that can be carried forward.

Ingram Wright: Catherine, I pointed pointed out the start in previous podcast we did a rather light hearted quiz i've been sitting here thinking anxiously that we ought to do it, but I don't think we have to I don't think we, I do think we have to, and it feels to me that.
Katherine Carpenter: What were you gonna ask me.

Ingram Wright: Well, I was going to ask you one of the questions was going to be bps or ACP which is rather unfair so politicized question embedded within the middle of otherwise frivolous question.

Ingram Wright: To answer that you've kind of answered that i'd say bps anyway, so that one so.
Katherine Carpenter: there's there's less to say about that there wasn't there.

Ingram Wright: I think so, but it was a it was a one one question of substance that was embedded within what would otherwise have been around light hearted and.

Ingram Wright: I think we've talked about some serious stuff kathryn and I.

Ingram Wright: I hope that.

Ingram Wright: You know.

Ingram Wright: That well, obviously we continue to work together within the within the division of neuropsychology and enjoy having these kinds of conversations about the direction.

Ingram Wright: Our profession is going and how we can support people and i'm grateful to you for your time today to talk to me talk to us.

Ingram Wright: And I just wondered if there's anything that you I kind of wanted to say, on reflection, in terms of the conversation we've had so far anything that's kind of struck you maybe you want to elaborate or know.
Katherine Carpenter: Oh well, gosh well i'm you know i'm grateful for the chance i've gotten as if anyone's going to be interested in listening.

Ingram Wright: I think course they will be.
Katherine Carpenter: Careful when i'm worried about us is that.
Katherine Carpenter: I sort of feel thinking about what we've talked about I worry, it seems a bit lame and I want to get across to people how.
Katherine Carpenter: Actually, how vigorous the division of neuropsychology is and how much I enjoy working with people and other younger people getting involved and also.
Katherine Carpenter: There, there is capacity for people to get involved, so you know you know well that our structure is that we have these three units.
Katherine Carpenter: And we co OPS people onto the units and that's a much less formal process so quite a few people have contacted me over the last year, saying.
Katherine Carpenter: Just coming back off matt leave haven't got a great deal of time, but would love to do something, what could I do and.
Katherine Carpenter: i'd like people to know there is that capacity to you know to dip your toe in the water, and you know part of the reason, people often.
Katherine Carpenter: I mean, I try and kind of change the roles on the committee, otherwise it gets a bit stuck, but I think part of the reason people get stuck is actually quite enjoy it because it you.
Katherine Carpenter: You get a bird's eye view of what's going on in the profession and you connect with colleagues in a different way and from different services and that's really enjoyable.

Ingram Wright: I mean, I found a tremendously enjoyable.

Ingram Wright: You know group to be part of I think you've changed things in terms of.

Ingram Wright: Bringing people into the division of your psychology, as you say, who may have an interest, but may have been a little bit.

Ingram Wright: nervous about coming forward or finding a place, and I think that it's made a real difference to the to the field of those meetings around around the table around the zoom conversation as it as it.

Ingram Wright: has been really helpful, I would ask us, as you said, I would, I would encourage people are interested to get involved, then people don't have to wait to lead got 20 years.

Ingram Wright: of clinical neuropsychologist they don't even have to wait until live qualified in your psychology or clinical psychology who expressed an interest in being part of the the organizational structure that shapes our profession.

Ingram Wright: Catherine Thank you i'm persuaded, but I always worse, I hope I hope people listen and I hope they get involved.
Katherine Carpenter: My pleasure.

Ingram Wright: Thank you.