Jon Evans - Clinical neuropsychology research and an international perspective

Professor Jon Evans and I discuss his entry into clinical neuropsychology, his orientation to neuropsychological research and an international perspective on our work 

Transcript

Ingram Wright:  Hello john Evans.

Jonathan Evans: it's nice to see you.

Hello.

Jonathan Evans: it's nice to be here.

Ingram Wright: And so thank you for agreeing to join us in the neuro clinic as we call it and and as he's conventional I think you're going to start by introducing yourself.

Jonathan Evans: happy to do that yep, so I am john hansen's he said so i'm professor of applied neuro psychology at the University of Glasgow and i'm honoree consultant clinical psychologist in NHS greater Glasgow and Clyde.

Ingram Wright: Thank you john and I guess, one of the questions that come up quite a bit on these podcasts is how people got into neuropsychology do.

Ingram Wright: You have a story about how you got into neuropsychology.

Jonathan Evans: And well yeah so I was very fortunate that when I was training, so I did the very long time ago, did the British psychological service society in service training course in wessex.

Jonathan Evans: So I had the opportunity to do a placement with Barbara Wilson, who was in Southampton at the time, so, in a sense that was my first introduction to.

Jonathan Evans: neuropsychology and people that are into capoeira was also an Southampton and Michelle Smith and so had a really good introduction to neuropsychology while I was training as a clinical psychologist.

Jonathan Evans: which I suppose was yeah definitely got me hooked.

Jonathan Evans: And from there moved when Barbara moved to work in Cambridge at the mrc applied psychology unit, as it was then published and brain sciences unit, as it is now and I ended up leaving.

Jonathan Evans: To to Cambridge Hello only just only just the how I ended up there was that that certainly was an interesting story, and one of those moments of luck and fate.

Jonathan Evans: colliding and I can tell you that if you want.

Ingram Wright: To tell you how interest now you've got me interested john, can you tell us more about that.

sure.

Jonathan Evans: So I after finishing my clinical psychology training.

Jonathan Evans: I traveled for six months, with my wife so she hasn't had we were both trainees and and we were so we were traveling so I didn't have a job.

Jonathan Evans: lined up for when I came back I just went off and traveled and and we had got on our travels as far as Bangkok, and it was happened to be.

Jonathan Evans: Easter weekend, not in Bangkok, but in back in the UK and i've gone to tell how long ago, this was to get mail or we had to go to the post office and pick up our letters from the post restaurant service.

Jonathan Evans: And so we picked up my letters and I opened one letter.

Jonathan Evans: And it was a letter from the first one was actually it was from my mother who explained that somebody called Barbara Wilson has had somehow got in touch with her to ask where I might be because.

Jonathan Evans: Barbara had moved to Cambridge by this time and had a job and she thought I might be interested so she was trying to contact me anyway.

Jonathan Evans: So the next letter I was actually a letter from from Barbara and so Barbara explained that she had a job as her assistant there and and if I was interested I should contact her to apply.

Jonathan Evans: And I noticed, as I read down that the the deadline for applications happened to be the day I was reading the letter.

Jonathan Evans: It happened to be Easter Sunday and I was in Bangkok.

Jonathan Evans: So I thought thought about it for a while and thought I would really like to apply for this job and now Barbara had put her telephone number on the on the on the letter.

Jonathan Evans: she'd recently moved to to Suffolk so I thought okay i'm going to try and ring ring Barbara so Julie trotted over to the to the international law sort of post office, Chad and phones and I tried and tried to call couldn't couldn't connect.

Jonathan Evans: And I was just about to give up, and that was that would have been it would have lost the opportunity just about to give up and, as I was walking out of the.

Jonathan Evans: office, the post office saw these there was some call boxes and they had an international calls on my phone okay well, let me give this a try, but, of course, the only way you could actually make these international calls was by reversing the charges so.

Jonathan Evans: So there, I am in Bangkok on Easter Sunday and I I phone Barbara and barbara's husband Nick answered the phone, who I didn't know at the time.

Jonathan Evans: And so I could hear mick answering the phone and the operator saying john Evans is calling from Bangkok, will you accept the charges and again very fortunately.

Jonathan Evans: Make accepted the call, and so I could then quickly explain and spoke to Barbara and said, I would like to apply for the for the job and and so, then.

Jonathan Evans: is to have an interview on my return and get the job, so I see this as a as a particularly unusual moment in my career where it could have gone.

Ingram Wright: It could have gone either way.

Ingram Wright: Multiple ways in which that could have gone wrong for you john and your career in your psychology but.

Thankfully.

Ingram Wright: You are and you're a psychologist and, apart from the people that you've mentioned, I presume, provided some inspiration Do you remember what it was about neuropsychology itself that got you hooked.

Jonathan Evans: And yeah I think I think it was the.

Jonathan Evans: I suppose there are so many elements to the clinical psychology work with people with different sort of neurological brain conditions and so on, I think I was intrigued by the the brain behavior.

Jonathan Evans: stuff you know, and I guess intrigued by you know, having the opportunity to meet people who had unusual.

Jonathan Evans: You know, conditions and therefore unusual experiences of the world, and that was that was striking you know meeting.

Jonathan Evans: meeting people with you know, an uneasy syndrome, or we see people I remember the first time I met somebody with a really striking.

Jonathan Evans: visual like nausea and just being you know just finding that day just it's just fascinating and intriguing and.

Jonathan Evans: And then, working with someone like Barbara I suppose just that opportunity to to think about rehabilitation and actually.

Jonathan Evans: Thinking about how both understanding these these sort of interesting and unusual conditions and then thinking.

Jonathan Evans: How, you know how do we, how do we help people to manage these in their everyday lives and so that combination, and I think i've always you know, a very much was being a.

Jonathan Evans: Clinical psychologist in the broadest sensor at heart, and so that that opportunity to think about the psychological impact of.

Jonathan Evans: of brain injury and brain conditions on on people's lives and help people cope psychologically, as well as neuro psychologically and cognitively, if you like, and, and so I think i've always i've maintained that interest in in very much the psychological and the cognitive.

Jonathan Evans: In people's lives throughout my career.

Ingram Wright: And this might not be a fair question john because it wasn't one of the list of topics that we were going to discuss but i'm interested in what you just said there about clinical psychology and neuroscience psychology and the breadth.

Ingram Wright: You know perspective that clinical psychology brings as a foundation for neuropsychology training, as we do it in the in the UK.

Ingram Wright: Do you have a particular view or way of thinking about what what clinical psychology brings or what clinical psychologists, who are interested in your psychology bring to the sort of neuropsychological workforce.

Jonathan Evans: yeah, so I think I think it's very much about I suppose thinking thinking very as clinical psychology with pretty much.

Jonathan Evans: trained to think about psychological processes and and how has impact on people's emotions and their thinking and their and their everyday lives and and I suppose that aspect is.

Jonathan Evans: I guess traditionally is sort of less slightly less apart, what has been less a part of of what you might call call sort of central neuro neuro psychology.

Jonathan Evans: But I think when you work in in a rehabilitation context, then I think you, you know the.

Jonathan Evans: there's such an emphasis on the integration of of those psychological process the emotional processes, the the cognitive processes and it's that bringing those together, you know I obviously we.

Jonathan Evans: established the the olivers angle Center work, and that was very much framed as a holistic neuropsychological rehabilitation Center and so when.

Jonathan Evans: never been that keen on the term holistic, other than that actually it's some it nicely brings this idea that actually in neuropsychological rehabilitation you're always always always trying to.

Jonathan Evans: Think about the psychological the cognitive that that's what I think of is neuro psychological, if you like.

Jonathan Evans: Yes, and and and approaching those from a therapeutic point of view, simultaneously, and in an integrated way and that's that's what I think of neuropsychological rehabilitation and so I think just you know coming from that that that clinical you know I have very good.

Jonathan Evans: Teachers of clinical psychology you know I did my research as a trainee with gladness Perry, who was what was.

Jonathan Evans: Just one of the you know really inspiring and psychotherapists, and so I had that that background and was bringing that to neuropsychology, I suppose, with me and so i've kept that you know throughout my career.

Ingram Wright: And I think one thing that's come through strongly in the conversations we've had people that sort of who have an emerging interest in your psychology but a training as clinical psychologists have aspirations to train as clinical psychologist says.

Ingram Wright: there's a desire to kind of maintain that sort of breadth of career pathways and not sort of become to siloed in the way that you think about what it is you've got to offer within a.

Ingram Wright: Within a service but to but to maintain interesting clinical psychology and psychotherapy and as its applied to individuals who may have neurological conditions.

Jonathan Evans: Absolutely, yes, because, in a sense, you know people with neurological conditions present with proven.

Jonathan Evans: experience how the whole raft of of difficulties, and I think it's you know it's a bit.

Jonathan Evans: Doing psychological work needs to be informed by understanding brain and cognition yet similarly doing neuropsychological work needs to be informed by.

Jonathan Evans: psychological and emotional emotional processes so we can't separate them, and you know I guess the people that we work with have have that you know, a layer of complexity that you know.

Jonathan Evans: everybody's complex in different ways, but in a sense, it's very you know striking me complex in that in that.

Jonathan Evans: You know the the patterns and the different sort of nature of the of the nearest neuropsychological of the cognitive difficulties that somebody might have, as well as that, and then the interaction with the psychological.

Ingram Wright: Thank you john this one sort of question in terms of we talked about how you got into neuropsychology by reversing the charges essentially I don't if you've continued to play that.

Ingram Wright: play that game, but TIM we're not reversing the charges today and I I I wondered about your current orientation, I mean, how would you describe your current research interests in your psychology.

Jonathan Evans: was thinking about this before we were still getting on that because I knew you're gonna ask about them, and I suppose the collective is probably the.

Jonathan Evans: eclectic in a positive I like to think of it as in a positive way, rather than just somebody that doesn't focus particularly much and and I suppose what I mean by that is.

Jonathan Evans: As opposed from both from from from you know from the research that I do i've been interested.

Jonathan Evans: Because exactly for the for all the reasons that I that i've explained i've been interested in in an assessment so i've been involved in, I had the opportunity to be involved in the development of assessment tools.

Jonathan Evans: laterally i've also been doing quite a lot of work with colleagues in in different parts of the world in thinking about.

Jonathan Evans: adaptation and development and adaptation of neuropsychological tests for in context in which.

Jonathan Evans: You know tesla you're not many tests, because they're so working with colleagues in in India in Thailand in Saudi Arabia and different places and so that that sparked an interest in in sort of cross cultural neuropsychology and the challenges of.

Jonathan Evans: Taking your psychology into into new places, but in a way that actually is makes sense for the for the context for the cultural and linguistic context in which that's happening and.

Jonathan Evans: So there's lots of really interesting and important issues, and things to get right that don't always go, you know aren't always done right but, and so I think that's one thing.

Jonathan Evans: And i've been interested in applications of different psychological therapies, in the context of brain injury, so I have particular interest in positive psychology and its application, we developed a.

Jonathan Evans: Psychological intervention sort of based around around positive psychotherapy approaches and and then things like.

Jonathan Evans: applications of technology so reminding technology so going back, obviously I had, I was able to work on the neuro page work that we did back in the sort of 90s and early 2000s.

Jonathan Evans: In in really thinking about how we, how we can make much better use of sort of of technology and supporting people with memory attention and executive impairments, and so that's been a strand of work, and we still do still do that work now and and yeah so I guess.

Jonathan Evans: Thinking about cognitive cognitive rehabilitation particularly rehabilitation of attention executive memory, I suppose, has been there has been the theme where we're doing trials at the moment running.

Jonathan Evans: Integrating cognitive training and the classics are working memory updating training with goal management training so.

Jonathan Evans: Catarina propose doing a PhD well with myself and kristin legal and salty bail on at the moment and developing that that intervention so it's sort of, I suppose, like that's what I meant by eclectic quite a sort of.

Ingram Wright: asked you about about about.

Ingram Wright: eclecticism john it's often it's often use critically isn't it to describe someone I muted alluded to this it's someone who might not have a sort of clear narrow focus and it's, I suppose, what it seems to me that you've managed to achieve, but.

Ingram Wright: Is it is making a success of that do you think it's always advisable to be eclectic in terms of how you perceive our sort of academic research career.

Ingram Wright: Know you're shaking your head.

Jonathan Evans: No, I don't think it's always advisable and highs days tricky isn't it depends, I mean, I think I think some of the some of the best researchers in the world are very focused, and so I think that there are many advantages to that and many, many advantages, I think.

Jonathan Evans: But I suppose, for me it comes it comes from that from being a clinician in a sense, and those clinical roots and thinking.

Jonathan Evans: Look, these these things are important, and I think they need doing and and wanting to do you know wanting to get on and do them and being interested in them.

Jonathan Evans: Yes, I think that I think it also comes from running a program to England as well, in terms of teaching and.

Jonathan Evans: Knowing that I, you know I want to ensure that the the people that were training are getting a broad broad experience or knowledge, and I think that, therefore, in a sense, takes me into into and not that I.

Jonathan Evans: Teach some of the things on the course, not everything by along, yes, yes and but because because I.

Jonathan Evans: cover a few different areas on the course and partly from the things that i've been doing, but in a sense, it keeps you interested in those areas and wanting to wanting to sort of develop them and and pass them on to people that are doing the training.

Ingram Wright: One of the things you mentioned earlier john in terms of your research interests with a sort of sort of cultural aspects of, say, developing tests that can be used in in sort of diverse circumstances and.

Ingram Wright: One of the things I wanted to talk to you about today was this of international focus of your work, your endeavor that sort of them and professional aspects of that.

Ingram Wright: And and could you tell us about the ins, the International neuropsychology society, what is the ins.

Jonathan Evans: yeah so so the onus is, as you said, the International neuropsychology society so it's um it's a nearest I call the organization.

Jonathan Evans: it's it is international it's it's I guess it's the largest of its membership isn't it isn't the US it's it's it's had a fairly sort of us.

Jonathan Evans: focus to it because of the the so many of the Members are in the US, but it for a long time, I think, increasingly, the ins is developing a more global outlook and, yes, and is, you know the lots of the.

Jonathan Evans: Work that's going on as as sort of focused on trying to support the development of neuropsychology around the world, so one of the things i've been doing the last few years is within ins, we have a.

Jonathan Evans: global engagement committee it's called, and again I think in some senses that probably emerged initially from the ins being.

Jonathan Evans: very much a us sort of based organization, but wanting to look outside in one sense now, of course, it is, it is an international organization or Members from all over the world.

Jonathan Evans: But the global engagement committee is really trying to support the development of your security in places where it's less well less well developed, and so we have, for example, we've reinvigorated what's called the Matthews fund and the Matthews fund is.

Jonathan Evans: Something which.

Jonathan Evans: Members can donate to.

Jonathan Evans: And we organize it funds workshops in again in places where neuropsychology is less well developed as.

Jonathan Evans: Part of a focus on low and middle income countries, but not just because the ne ne ne ne country where your psychology is not so not well and so stimulating workshops where international faculty can.

Jonathan Evans: be funded to provide workshops so in recent years we've had workshops in India and Thailand in the most recent one was running in Botswana and so.

Jonathan Evans: Members on the on the ground, if you like, will coordinate with.

Jonathan Evans: Colleagues from elsewhere.

Jonathan Evans: and provide that you get the funding to run workshops without just a small, you know small it's a small thing in terms of that flipping your security but hoping to.

Jonathan Evans: inspire people and provide sort of knowledge, information and tools and access to information that too so yeah just to encourage encourage and support the development so that that.

Ingram Wright: Would it be would it be fair to characterize that as sort of campaigning work.

Jonathan Evans: i'm.

Jonathan Evans: complaining, maybe, maybe i'm not sure i'm not sure I would I would.

Ingram Wright: I was wondering when when I when I thought about asking you about the ins, I mean I suppose that that i've enjoyed about ins membership is that is the excellent conferences that that that the ins puts.

Jonathan Evans: Yes.

Ingram Wright: you're right, so I guess those I guess what what many people will know about the ins is yes they've been to some excellent conferences they've been able to.

Ingram Wright: Access they see workshops, etc, that it tremendously beneficial and I think in terms of the way that they're delivered.

Ingram Wright: there's a generosity, I think that comes in, from the ins in terms of making sure that those programs are increasingly accessible and especially during this period restrictions it's something that I guess, a number of people will have come across.

Jonathan Evans: yeah so absolutely the the sort of the two conferences, yes there's one in the in the states in in February and then one somewhere else around the world around the world.

Jonathan Evans: In in the middle of the year, usually July, and of course we've just had that conferences that's been in it was in Australia, just a few days ago and was.

Jonathan Evans: supposed to be in Melbourne but ended up having to go fully online, it was going to be a hybrid but went on went fully online they made a fantastic success of it.

Jonathan Evans: Under really, really challenging circumstances with tencent like 10 days notice to switch from hybrid to fully online.

Jonathan Evans: So it was a it was a huge achievement so yeah so I NS provides those two conferences, yes that's it sort of core core business, I guess, but.

Jonathan Evans: It said, we do you know it does it does other things, so one of the recent develops actually is the emergence of special interest groups or the now there's quite a large number of special interest groups within ins sort of giving people the opportunity to come together in terms of again.

Jonathan Evans: Fantastic thing about.

Jonathan Evans: The the increased use of zoom as we're using today and other platforms is that opportunity to bring people together, and so, for example, one of the special interest groups is that it was a was a type of 19 neuroscience neuropsychology sort of interest and I participated in that and.

Jonathan Evans: You know that's that's produced a paper looking at trying to think about harmonization of.

Jonathan Evans: neuropsychological assessments that would be used for studies in this case in 19, but I think I suppose it's a reflection of one of the things that you know that we have the.

Jonathan Evans: potential to do through that sort of international collaborations are to do things like get together and say look.

Jonathan Evans: We trying to think about using consistent tools and what tools should those be.

Jonathan Evans: Maybe that will allow us to produce researching from different places, which is easier to bring together.

Jonathan Evans: To mess analyze, if you like, to bring terrain together and actually will will will end up with stronger sort of stronger evidence base for.

Jonathan Evans: Whatever nature of conditions or interventions and so on, so I think those opportunities come from from that and there you know, there are great things going on around the world and.

Jonathan Evans: We are getting better, I think I have the opportunity to bring that knowledge together through you know through contact and people working together, and this is one one venue for doing that.

Ingram Wright: One one question I wanted to ask you is about you know how the international perspective helps us, I mean I suppose that maybe isn't quite the right way to frame the question but I suppose.

Ingram Wright: You know whether we're looking at.

Ingram Wright: You know the fees that we might choose to pay to the British psychological society or the ins i'm just wondering.

Ingram Wright: How do you think an international perspective helps us as neuropsychologists what does it was it bring to our practice our view of the world, if you have the discipline.

Jonathan Evans: Well, I think.

Jonathan Evans: that the first year sort of recognition that that there are different ways of doing things and different approaches and different views.

Jonathan Evans: Around around the world, so I think that.

Jonathan Evans: I think.

Jonathan Evans: You know, and since we have, I think.

Jonathan Evans: I guess organizations like this will bring people together so we've all you know everyone has access to to knowledge through through journal papers through through you know through through that that sort of medium but.

Jonathan Evans: I guess belonging to an organization brings people together, and I think that.

Jonathan Evans: That that that then.

Jonathan Evans: I guess it inspires if you, you know innocence, there is there's that element of reading, you know you you go off read, but you you actually I think you know, I was, I was thinking about it in terms of the conference we've just had the the ins and then the.

Jonathan Evans: World Federation for neuro rehab the neuroscience rehab special interest group again that that follows on from the from the ins meeting that's been yes, there today and yesterday.

Jonathan Evans: And you know again that that's it's been amazing to just to hear people from some of the places in the world that really doing great great work and where there's a real sort of momentum and little pockets of fantastic work so and then your site, we had feel.

Jonathan Evans: The.

Jonathan Evans: There are some groups in Australia, Australia, which is fantastic neuro psych rehab and and the Netherlands and.

Jonathan Evans: Of course, the UK but but yes, but, but I think just you know.

Jonathan Evans: One of the great things is there are there are places whether whether pockets, whether you get that real sort of momentum from a critical mass.

Jonathan Evans: And I think being able to tap into that and to hear those people and to and to listen to them and, and I think is yeah it's inspiring and I think it's it's sometimes easier.

Jonathan Evans: And sort of trawling papers, if you like, so I think those those are the sort of benefits, I think I feel like I get certainly from you know, making the time to listen to people who fits crazy house in the morning.

Ingram Wright: And I suppose it it.

Ingram Wright: It struck me having attended ins conferences and sort of benefited from that international perspective that it's liberating to think outside of the system that you work in as a clinician so you know we're constrained by.

Ingram Wright: The resources in the UK, how the NHS funds certain things and doesn't fund other things, and I think there is something liberating about seeing how different systems operate.

Ingram Wright: And yes, what's possible.

Jonathan Evans: Absolutely well if you go back to the left something like singles into and obviously barbers experience it was Barber that that was inspired by a service.

Jonathan Evans: In in phoenix and Arizona, and that was originally established by George Clinton knows now run by Pamplona often in phoenix and again that was in the traditional order the emerging traditional.

Jonathan Evans: People like George Atlanta we're developing and you'd Have a nice day and and colleagues in that that idea that holistic know certainly have sense and.

Jonathan Evans: You know, we didn't we didn't have something similar to that and Barbara spend time there you know and then came back inspired thinking.

Jonathan Evans: Well, could we could we do that, then, Barbara was actually just presenting it and.

Jonathan Evans: Presidential address at the conference last couple of days and was making the point that no she she came back and wanted to wanted to do something like that here, but recognizing that it didn't exist within their their health service at the time and but was encouraged.

Jonathan Evans: encouraged to sort of.

Jonathan Evans: Try to put a business case together which he did, and three years later, the service emerged, if you like that and it's sort of gone gone from there.

Jonathan Evans: So I think that that opportunity to you know spend time or to to hear or actually to really listen to how people are doing things differently, I think I think it can it can transform what you do and.

Jonathan Evans: I say we will grow up in a particular traditional way of doing this and sometimes it is that that push to think actually you know.

Jonathan Evans: We could we could do more here, if you like, we do a bit, but we could do more, or we could do it this way, and knowing that knowing that it's done somewhere or somebody you know, I have a difficult.

Jonathan Evans: I think that really helps if you've got a model or a sort of hey look actually under certain circumstances, this is possible.

Yes.

Jonathan Evans: Maybe we can maybe we can make it happen yeah.

Ingram Wright: john we we've reached that lowbrow point in the podcast where people are beginning to.

Ingram Wright: wonder when when I did I did for warn you that i'd spared Catherine competent this quiz.

Ingram Wright: On the on the on the grounds that that it well, I don't know what grounds, but maybe i'll come back to her with a with a quiz but I said that I wasn't gonna let you off the hook.

Ingram Wright: So you know these are forced choice questions that are essentially nonsense, but will reveal something about you.

Ingram Wright: So the first choice is attention or executive you can't have both.

Jonathan Evans: executive.

Ingram Wright: luria on brassica.

luria.

Ingram Wright: mojito dorito.

Jonathan Evans: Well heater.

Ingram Wright: sourdough rye.

Jonathan Evans: rye.

Ingram Wright: zoom or room.

Jonathan Evans: zoom Oh well, no sorry room room room.

Ingram Wright: You change your mind they're revealing.

Ingram Wright: Twitter or linkedin.

Ingram Wright: Twitter netflix or I player.

Ingram Wright: By player he's a political one, for you ins or bps.

Jonathan Evans: Oh, that was that impossible like being asked.

Ingram Wright: Which one of your children.

Ingram Wright: Yes, exactly like the banks.

Ingram Wright: Are you prepared to answer that one.

Ingram Wright: No, no, you will, this is the first.

Ingram Wright: refuse it's an unfair question he's he's an easier one john killed saw stills.

Ingram Wright: kills there we are.

Ingram Wright: So so with the with the with that with that penultimate question in mind you've recently been elected as ins President.

hmm.

Ingram Wright: He prepared to talk about what your what your presidency will involve what does.

Ingram Wright: It mean to be President.

Jonathan Evans: Of the ins, what does it mean yeah well one thing about being elected as president is you get a long run in so i'm President elect, but what that means is I don't have to be actually actually President for about another two years, I think it is so.

Ingram Wright: Right.

Jonathan Evans: it's some Skype and on all these this year so sky goes through to February next year and then after the February meeting ID Superman is from the US.

Jonathan Evans: takes over for a year and then so it'll be February, after the end of the ins meeting in February 2023 I takeover.

Jonathan Evans: So I will be president for the meetings in Taiwan so we're gonna have a meeting in Taipei Taiwan in the mid middle of the year 2023 and then in New York in 20 February 2024 so when you're President, you are as President, covering a year, so, which is to ins meetings.

Jonathan Evans: We have a board of finance as a board of directors, which well until recently actually only met twice a year.

Jonathan Evans: at those two meetings but actually again, one of the great things about about zoom is that we've now.

Jonathan Evans: starts to meet between between those meetings, so the Board of Directors can meet more regularly, and I think that actually is both necessary, because actually is doing doing a lot more now, I think, with all the different.

Jonathan Evans: projects and development so it's doing doing a lot more, and so yeah it makes that makes that possible.

Jonathan Evans: it's still very challenging having meetings like i'm sure everybody's had that thing about trying to do, international meetings and our last meeting.

Jonathan Evans: Our executive director mark Norman is in San Diego and President, current president Scott McDonald is in Sydney.

Jonathan Evans: And then everyone else is somewhere in between, so we have we have a meeting when mark has to be up at 4am and sky has to start the meeting at 9pm fortunately somehow I got lucky and we tend to meet in the middle of the day, as far as.

Jonathan Evans: For us in Central Europe.

Jonathan Evans: So yeah so that's so the being President means that you will.

Jonathan Evans: chair the board for for a year.

Jonathan Evans: And the meeting, and then I guess it's an opportunity to for me it's an opportunity to continue to really sort of.

Jonathan Evans: push in and enable us to do that work in supporting the development of neuro psych around around the world, as I, as I was, Chair of the global engagement committee and that's now.

Jonathan Evans: pastor in Italia Jadot he's in Spain so she's taken on that role and i'm really, really pleased because she's.

Jonathan Evans: taken on very enthusiastically and is really developing it as well, which is great so in a way, I think it's um my sense, which is lots of know a lot of people, you know big I guess the nature of the people that get involved in an ins is such that they're interested interested in international.

Jonathan Evans: Issues you yourself are going to be, you know involved in the the looking at the Houston guidelines for the ins, yes, so, which is for anyone that doesn't know the Houston guidelines are basically the guidelines which which sort of.

Jonathan Evans: US clinical neuropsychology Community uses to restructure its training, I suppose, and there's a rewrite of that going on, but what again, I think, just as you know that those Houston guidelines are the US us a call this writing.

Ingram Wright: things for themselves, but.

Jonathan Evans: You know what's what's fantastic is you know actually the people involved in that are saying well actually would quite like to you know.

Jonathan Evans: Get get people involved from from other parts of the world, if possible, and hopefully we you know you US can can bring.

Jonathan Evans: Things from from the from from our perspective into into that into the US process but also it's it's a great opportunity for you know asked to be you know thinking about what we know what our colleagues in the US.

Jonathan Evans: Thinking in terms of how neuroscience training should develop going forward so you know we've got immediate access into that so in a sense, it's through.

Jonathan Evans: I guess I see you know by you know there's an example isn't it where by by by me being.

Jonathan Evans: involved in and getting getting involved in that in that organization, it means that we can also do other things, both here in the UK that connectors into, particularly in this because the US is a big place and a lot of.

Jonathan Evans: A lot of.

Ingram Wright: Do you think I mean I suppose I I don't personally persuading of the sort of value of having that kind of involvement and sort of engagement with an international perspective, but do you think.

Ingram Wright: Do you think we have an issue in the UK, with perhaps not being quite as internationally focused as we ought to be.

Jonathan Evans: yeah my.

Ingram Wright: I wondered if we might be a little bit is that a phobic john I suppose.

Jonathan Evans: I think it's.

Jonathan Evans: I think.

Jonathan Evans: yeah I suppose i've always been interested in travel and places and people, so I think that's my you know.

Jonathan Evans: I think I do a lot that work because I just really enjoy you know, the idea of sort of meeting you know and.

Jonathan Evans: On something how people are doing things differently around the world and and so.

Jonathan Evans: I think I guess maybe we have that that issue that we you know we have a system that's really well established in one sense and and so you know, we in one in one sense we don't we don't really need to you know.

Jonathan Evans: If there isn't there isn't a great pressure to look at look outside because we have a we have a tradition, we have you know, we know that we have in the UK as a strong.

Jonathan Evans: academic and clinical addition we have a strong version of training, you know we have a coherent sort of you know it's changing and developing and obviously.

Jonathan Evans: Certainly neuropsychology training as as really and continuing to to develop and change.

Jonathan Evans: So, but so in one sense, I can see that thing is, we don't we don't need in one sense we there's no real pressure to look outside.

Jonathan Evans: However, I think it's always interesting when you do and recognizing that you know, there are.

Jonathan Evans: You know, if you look to like I said look to what's what's happening in Australia, I mean I think one of the perspectives that I think is really important from from from our point of view in the UK is thinking about.

Jonathan Evans: How we get better at sort of clinical academic research and so on, so, and you know I just think we there.

Jonathan Evans: it's something that that that is a feature I think of the of the of the of the health service and the pressures on on and everybody working the health service that you know it's the usual thing we're doing research is difficult in a in a clinical job.

Jonathan Evans: But what we want is, and you know, again, the UK so really strong tradition of of of you know, cognitive neuroscience and that that aspect of neuro neuro psychology.

Jonathan Evans: But what we what we still need and still need more of is is the is the clinical clinical neuropsychology and your psychological rehabilitation research which is really.

Jonathan Evans: Really embedded in in clinical work clinical problems and so on, but but but strong academically and you know to to influence the evidence base to change the guidelines to you know, improve.

Jonathan Evans: Practice, both here and you know around the world, and some places are doing that better than better than us, I think.

Ingram Wright: it's been it's been striking, you mentioned the revision of the Houston conference guidelines, I mean looking around the table.

Ingram Wright: So I envy the the research trajectories that people are clearly managed to to get going in terms of the colleagues in the in the states, and I think that that starts with their training doesn't it and it's part of it's an intrinsic part of the of clinical practice in your psychology.

Jonathan Evans: Yes, it is, I mean i'm sure there are lots of lots of people that you know again.

Jonathan Evans: Not doing.

Jonathan Evans: You know, certainly in the US yeah but but, but I think, because there is there is there is quite a strong focus on on research and and I guess just the number of people number of universities, the number of songs.

Jonathan Evans: there's there's more but, but I do think there's something about trying to really hang on to that that that sort of you know, to Cuba to stimulate encourage.

Jonathan Evans: You know, research more because it's you know, and I think most people have said that you know I think when I worked in in clinical services way up you know where you were research is happening, I think it's stimulating it's interesting and keeps keeps expression.

Jonathan Evans: And it helps to keep people in jobs, I think in terms of that you know because it's an interesting to stay if you're part of that.

Jonathan Evans: display that starting are so many so many reasons but but I recognize I know it's really difficult to do, because when you know the the clinical pressures that people are under so.

Jonathan Evans: But I guess you know.

Jonathan Evans: it's it's I think it's down to us to try and keep thinking about how how to make that more possible and to and to stimulate more more more people to do that.

Ingram Wright: Thank you john I really appreciate your time today it's been great to talk to you.

Jonathan Evans: you're welcome it's been nice thanks.